by leavingwt 42 Replies latest jw friends
james:
you cannot "believe" in a god concept if you believe it is not possible to know if it exists or not.
Yes, and if you do NOT believe (for whatever reason, including agnosticism) then you are an atheist.
Or, perhaps I should ask this: What is your opinion of the term "Agnostic Atheist"?
knowsnothing: In your opinion, is the question below framed wrong? If so, why?
"Do you believe in Santa Claus"
Because it may have been missed in my long post... I know atheists who pray, and I know theists who do not. Prayer is not a behavior that can define a theist from an atheist.
The Silence: I enjoyed your response. I'm sorry that I did not specifcally respond to you. I think you, Tammy and slimboyfat made good arguments, basically presenting enough evidence to answer the question of the title of this thread. Yes, peole can be agnostic, behaviorally.
Words slippery words.
And yet, if one allows for a possibility of a deity, praying to the unknowable would be like talking a chance. Like sending a message in a bottle, in the hopes someone would receive it, whosoever it may be.
Or, in more modern terms - like sending out messages as part of the SETI program. Some scientists seriously think it might be safer to just LISTEN.
The Silence: I enjoyed your response. I'm sorry that I did not specifcally respond to you. I think you, Tammy and slimboyfat made good arguments, basically presenting enough evidence to answer the question of the title of this thread. Yes, peole can be agnostic, behaviorally.
lol No problem, I wasn't looking for specific acknowledgement, but people kept bringing up prayer as a behavior that was strictly theist and I know my post was long so many probably skimmed and missed when I pointed that out so I just made the point again. ;)
Those atheists that believe you can't disprove the existence of a personal GOD just haven't analyzed it enough and are just trying to avoid arguing the point.
LeavingWT, the only reason I pointed out the 2nd question was framed wrong was in light of it being part of a series of questions.
You are forcing a conclusion, based on those 2 questions. The second question is very specific and doesn't allow for the range of possibilities agnostics may believe in. It's not broad enough to allow other similar beliefs, like a Universal Consciousness, for example.
As you yourself have admitted, it is possible to be agnostic behaviorally. Questions that tend to bifurcate complicated issues should be rethought.
Those atheists that believe you can't disprove the existence of a personal GOD just haven't analyzed it enough and are just trying to avoid arguing the point.
That assumes that analysis is required, that knowing the answer is required, that arguing is required. Perhaps the answer of god vs. no god is simply not as important to an agnostic as it is to an atheist or a theist. Perhaps it just carries very little weight in their life.
It is very important to me to understand the definition of roles in my relationships. Most people are more fluid about such things. Does that mean they simply haven't analyzed it enough and are just trying to avoid arguing the point or does it mean that we place different degrees of importance on the matter in our lives?
I don't think anyone can define someone behaviorally as theist, atheist, or agnostic
I agree with your whole post, Jackie.
My issue is that theists (in general) claim that their beliefs make their behaviours and thoughts "better" or "higher" than those of athiests or agnostics. Otherwise, why else would they subscribe to them? In view of this claim, I've spent alot of time watching here in recent months and I honestly see very little evidence of the truth of that claim.
It seems like belief in God or Christ is basically a "free pass" - it makes whatever your PERSONAL behaviour and thinking is OKAY!! because "I believe in Jesus!" Which doesn't lend itself to any kind of self-examination of one's thoughts and behaviours. That's what bothers me the most. The whole, "Whatever I do or think is right because I have Jesus on my side!"
I'm an atheist, but I still sometimes go to a UU church. I never pray, but I will sing a little pagan chant now and then if the message is positive and empowering and helps me shift my frame of mind---but I don't believe anything magical happens. It's more like an affirmation. So I may appear to be acting like a theist--sometimes. More important than my actions is my motivation.
One could say that an atheist has relative morality, but I think this is true for everyone. Someone that believes certain things are wrong--regardless of circumstances---can definitely convince themselves of an exception when presented with a situation where they SHOULD weigh all factors before making a decision instead of falling back on some black and white understanding.
So that may appear they are acting like an atheist.
One thing that I have learned from leaving a cult, people usually can't be defined all nice an neat. Most things I thought about them were just wrong. Humans operate in so many layers, that anything beyond loose generalities is just worthless.
NC
