by tootired2care 20 Replies latest jw friends
LOL tootired....I was never a JW...except they messed with my mind....a lot.
But I agree with what you say. It is ironic that the things that I felt when I believed in god are dismissed or judged as incorrect by some 'real believers'. Ironically, what has been dismissed were my last remnants of belief. Which made me really look at them...and discover they may just be in my head. Funny that..
Dear.... 2care, I agree that Bible believers, whether once JW's or not, are a bit of a pain, especially when they post their brand of idiocy as a "given" ,that it is "true".
I am surprised though that you feel JW's have superior interpretations in certain areas, my default position is that if it is a WT/JW interpretation that is unique to them then it is wrong, I have not seen an example that makes me think otherwise, do you have one ?
Perhaps you are not talking about the unique doctrines , just the old "they do not believe in the trinity, immortal soul, hellfire etc etc" , well they have that in common with a lot of Christendom's sects.
Do they have a unique doctrine, held by no one else, that is correct ?
I do not think so.
TooTiredToCare,
In general, you might be surprised, I agree with you here. Saying "the Lord told me" is a cop out, and most of Scripture can be understood by anyone, provided its own rules of interpretation, comparing Scripture with Scripture, are followed. Inside knowledge is not offered, not valid, not needed, and risks the condemnation of Revelation 22:18,19.
There is a lot of wacky stuff out there in the churches today. They might be my brothers, but often its hard to tell. They seem to understand and believe in the forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake, they seem to love the LORD, but, Oh, there are such a lot of strange ideas. The LORD is not ashamed to call them brothers (Heb 2:11), He is so generous and kind.
I think that the bible is often misused. It is difficult to remember that the bible was written many thousands of years ago. Ideas and accepted practices that were common knowledge then are a mystery to a modern day reader. We take the bible out of the time in which it was written and try to apply modern mentalities and concepts to ancient civilisations and people.
Academics will admit to gaps in knowledge because they are interested in facts and proof these things don't concern believers as much who are more focused on what is said. However I find jw interpretation of scripture very convoluted especially when they do verse by verse interpretations. Their insistence on dual fulfilments including modern day fulfilments can be extremely dubious with very minor events being included.
I find it refreshing when someone admits to ignorance and also more compelling this indicates their interest in truth not propaganda.
Phizzy i'll give you an example of what I feel is a superior interpretation.
Why God is still allowing suffering?
JW's
He went through a lot of trouble to send his son here to create a legal framework for us to be reconciled. The JW's position is that God is allowing this for a time to give people a chance to repent before he destroys the worlds institutions and wicked (everyone that doesn't bow to him). There are many scriptures that support this (OT and NT) any translation.
Non JW's
Many Christians here ignore those texts; and believe that God is not going to remake this world, or that he is somehow going to use certain people to effect change, and this world will not be remade and billions will not be wiped out by God.
The non JW's answer to this question to me, is just not rational at all, because if he is working through the institutions of man, they sure as heck don't work very well, and if were my reputation on the line I'd make damn sure they did work well. Furthermore this position actually makes God out to be more uncaring, when you factor in how bad things have been the last 2,000 years. This position leaves you scratching your head wondering why hasn't the value of Jesus shed blood been applied, what is he waiting for?
God is allowing this for a time to give people a chance to repent before he destroys the worlds institutions and wicked
You're asking some good questions. This is a good thing. Keep searching, researching, meditating, etc. Also, research 'Logical Fallacies' if you get a chance. This can be helpful.
This 'time' that he is 'allowing' as you suggest above allows hundreds of millions of additional Asians to be born, that must be later slaughtered at Armageddon (according to JW and much other apocalyptic Christianity).
If God is what they say he is, he doesn't need to prove anything to anyone. He can stand on the deck of the Enterprise and say 'make it so' and it happens.
Your current theory puts the blame for what we see on the planet today with a naked woman and a piece of fruit. With further investigation, you may discover that you really don't buy this. It didn't withstand scrutiny, for me.
Placing the fate of mankind on Adam and Eve would be like locking toddlers in a small workshop and giving them power tools. Only a monster would do such a thing.
Just my two cents.
Good points LW.
Just to be clear i'm not saying that I do believe this at all. I'm just saying that this argument to explain the bible is much more rational than arguments presented by non JW Christians. I have thought of the fallacies like more people being born and God expecting us to preach to them, it's one of the reason I'm leaving.
Having given these sorts of things a great deal of thought, I have concluded that I cannot say for a certainty that there isn't a designer (agnostic position mostly). But I have seen enough evidence to cause me to conclude, that all religious holy books are garbage when really analysed. And that if a designer does exist, he obviously doesn't care what goes on here; so why should anyone care what it thinks, and waste our time following the fantasies of long dead lunatics? Rather, it's high time for everyone to be freed of the bondages of religion, and live a purposeful life that is not in fear of a celestial dictator, who has not even proven he is really there or that he cares.
If we don't have rationality and logic then we have nothing.
tootired2care: Thanks for the clarification. It's all nonsense to me, too.
TooTired2care,
"JW's
He went through a lot of trouble to send his son here to create a legal framework for us to be reconciled. The JW's position is that God is allowing this for a time to give people a chance to repent before he destroys the worlds institutions and wicked (everyone that doesn't bow to him). There are many scriptures that support this (OT and NT) any translation.
Non JW's
Many Christians here ignore those texts; and believe that God is not going to remake this world, or that he is somehow going to use certain people to effect change, and this world will not be remade and billions will not be wiped out by God."
Speaking as a Trinitarian Christian, it looks as if the JW position quoted above is much closer to my view than the non JW "Christian" position above.... in fact everything quoted above as the JW position I agree with, and I would say is a Christain view (- though why not just say that everything will be destroyed rather than speak of "the world's institutions"?) As for the "Christian" position: it may be important to note that the Christian view of 'the afterlife for believers' is diffferent from the JW view. The Christian view includes:-
1 The moment a person dies their soul goes immediately to Heaven or Hell. (Luke 23:43 (Note: In NWT the comma is deliberately put in the wrong place: it shouldn't be "I tell you the truth today," but "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise"; Philippians 1:23)
2 At "Armageddon"/the Last Day of Judgement, our souls will receive back a resurrection body. I expect it will be recognizably similar to our current body. (It will be the same person you and me, not some different person, as seems to be taught by WTBTS.) So Heaven will, after the Day of Judgement, be a physical place. In that sense, the Christian Heaven is similar to the current physical world. I hope it can be seen that this physical Heaven can justifiably be called "a new heavens and a new earth". For a Christian, the idea of remaking the earth is not how he thinks of things after the Day of Judgement. There are important differences between the JW's idea of a future earthly life and the Evangelical Heaven: for a start, there will be no marriage, no sex, no child-bearing in the Evangelical Heaven. (Matthew 22:25-32): this is the future of all who have believed on the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. So the JW idea that the earth will be recreated and life will start again like in the garden of Eden without sin is not what I or Evangelicals believe.
(Note: In NWT the comma is deliberately put in the wrong place: it shouldn't be "I tell you the truth today," but "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" . . .
So you say the comma was misplaced. Based on what? There was no comma in the original. So was is your placement of the comma the valid one?
For a Christian, the idea of remaking the earth is not how he things of thing after the Day of Judgement.
It is how SOME Chrisitians think.
But that's what's interesting about bible believers. Their comma placement is the correct one. Based on what? Christians believe such . . . indicating that those that read the same verses and conclude something different (and everyone gets to conclude whatever they want, because that's just how the bible is) then they are not Christians.
We watch one group claim another group is not really Christian, because they do not fullfill a personal definition of christianity.
When Andrew referred to other Churches, he said they have wacky beliefs. But he said the Lord was not ashamed of them. But when referring to JW's there seems to be an indication that they are not even Christians----as they do not envision the earth like 'Christians' do. So why is it that so much room is given to those whacky beliefs of other churches---no shame---but JW's are not Christians, and their beliefs disqualify them?
It's an interesting dynamic. "Hey, lots of people with crazy beliefs are my brothers---but those JW's, well, not them."
I say if someone calls themself a Christian, they get to be a Christian. No particular group has any special right to the word. They really don't get to define it and then deny it to others. It's a general word that indicates a believer in Christ. And if someone says they believe in Christ, I will believe them and not ask details. OH PLEASE, no details.
I'll just never identify myself as a Christian again. Still, from this side, the infighting and confidence that some are Christians and other are not continues to be intriguing. I used to be there. Weird.
NC
