No Escape from Religion - Am I wrong?

by Perry 32 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Perry

  Abaddon,

  I must concur with gravedancer in your humorous posts. Perhaps humor is my weakness. If that is true you have totally slayed me. Furthermore, both gravedancer and SixofNine have made a much better "last word" than I ever could have.

  I will also concede to a slight arrogant characteristic at times as I also conceeded to a slight jealously issue with Amazing a few weeks ago. I will work on it just for you. However, if I can be arrogant at times, one thing I cannot do is recharacterize something for what it definitely is not just to promote my views.

  For instance, if I did lean toward adherence to an atheistic ideology (arguably different that atheism in its purest form), I would have no problem in admitting that it would serve the same societal function as other ideologies even if they chose to use the word religion. I would have to go up against a whole slew of sociologists to prove otherwise.

  Admittedly, some of my atheist brethren might be upset and point out that we'll get a lot more mileage by refusing to characterize it as such. But, having that arrogant streak that you have alluded to, I would probably tell them, "let's fight it out in the open like men, to hell with being sneaky".

  Both SixofNine and gravedancer have made strong arguments in favor of the benefits of an ideology based on atheism. While still abstaining from the "R" word, they are worthy of consideration.

  gd:
  

  Atheism puts no obligation on me to consider how my actions will be construed by some God. I do not have to pay heed to stuff like "whatever we do we do for the glory of God" or "pleasse be wise my son, so that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me". There is no guilt trip associated with it. Why because I dont even think about how my pleasures and decisions affect some God.

  SixofNine:
  

  Still, the MOST logical take on God's communicating with man, imo, is that we can learn about God from nature, as the theist believes it is His work, therefore reflective of Him.

  Funny though, the logical outgrowth from such a belief, is pretty much the same as the logical outgrowth of an atheist looking around and saying "hmmm, I wonder what I can learn from nature".

  Now, these have to be very similar to the arguments I would make had I more atheistic ideological leanings. What the hell is so wrong in pointing out the benefits of a logical thought construct based on atheism? The answer: nothing.

  If there is nothing wrong with that, and it is truly worthy of open debate and honest consideration, why deny that it would have no effect on society? And if a person truly believes it would have a superior effect on the individual and the society....why not call it a religion....indeed a superior one?

  Six and gd,

  I appreciated your responses. I will bring up the "next logical step" in this discussion in a future thread. I am hoping to discuss, debate, and compare the benefits and failings of ideologies based on both precepts. I look forward to everone's participation especially my good friend Abaddon. Keep that dinner invitation open!

  Six,

  You make some very interesting statements toward the close of your post. I'd like to ponder that a while and ask you to elaborate on it, perhaps on e-mail or the phone.

  gd,

  According to your definition, logically one can only agree. Your definition doesn't fit the science of sociology however. It is worth exploring though, otherwise a lot of time will be wasted in differing definitions.

  Abaddon,

  good luck with the job hunt.

  I uncovered some rather disturbing business developments on my trip to L.A. last week and must return with my attorney to sort things out. I will be only intermittently posting for the next two weeks.

  Take care everone.
• 

  Abaddon

  SixofNine; nice post!

  "Perhaps because, while it sounds at first blush to be so wonderfully self-less, it is in fact so perfectly selfish."

  That's the best way of saying it that I have ever heard. If human society makes that its goal, then I think a lasting balance may be achieved someday. It would be the most natural thing in the world, mirroring the wonderful cold machine that is "Mother Nature".

  It's the thinking man's rational egoism, or something; it's been a while since I did philosophy, I've just had a wisdon tooth removed, and am paracetemol, caffine and cannabised to the eyeballs in anticipation of the Ultracaine wearing of.

  As the say in Holland "Ik ben en grote wuss".

  gravedancer;

  Atheism puts no obligation on me to consider how my actions will be construed by some God. I do not have to pay heed to stuff like "whatever we do we do for the glory of God" or "pleasse be wise my son, so that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me". There is no guilt trip associated with it. Why because I dont even think about how my pleasures and decisions affect some God. A religious person would do so....its part of the lifestyle. An atheist does not think about what isn't a factor.

  Everytime I read stuff like this I say to myself, under my breath, "learn to be more concise Gyles", five times.

  I remember once at a nightclub I worked at, me and some other of the bartenders were having a laugh, playing "Truth and Dare" with one of the bouncer's girlfriends, during staff drinks at the end of the night. At one point she giggled, and refused to answer a question; nothing nasty, but she was embaressesed.

  Her boyfriend came over and said something like "Don't listen to these silly wankers", and we laughed, and then he was off "You're laughing at me, I don't like people laughing at me", with the ganster finger jab punctuating every word.

  My co-worker then said, "We're not laughing AT you, we're laughing NEAR you". This caused my hilarity and sliding off sofas in our corner, but Mr Steroid-Rage, did I mention he was, like, HUGE? Mr Steroid rage wasn't impressed at all; one of HIS mates had to hold him off us.

  Ever since then I've been aware that there's a laughing at me, a laughing with me, AND a laughing near me.

  I am glad I amuse at times. I hope it's the right way most of the time.

  Perry; I really do think I like you. It is, for me, times like this that make a board like this really worthwhile. Everyone has a good old chinwag, it gets a bit heated, and then everyone, regardless of the outcome, sorts stuff out and is happy with things.

  I have already gone through much of the learning and 'recovery' process, and aren't really here for 'support'; I realise I am fortunate in that respect, and it's fantastic that we can all do what we can to support people that need it with a listening ear, knowledge, experience, emotional sucor, whatever we have to bring. Others might like more topical or fluffy posts, and that's great too. I love chewing the bacon, and it's been a pleasure chewing the bacon with you.

  "Admittedly, some of my atheist brethren might be upset and point out that we'll get a lot more mileage by refusing to characterize it as such. But, having that arrogant streak that you have alluded to, I would probably tell them, "let's fight it out in the open like men, to hell with being sneaky"."

  I understand you, I hope. That makes sense to me; I have some views about things I know some people could well take issue with, but I'm damn'd if I'm gonna change them just to be popular.

  I hope that you get good news regarding your affairs, and look forward to discussing thing with you again.
• 

  Perry

  I understand you, I hope. That makes sense to me; I have some views about things I know some people could well take issue with, but I'm damn'd if I'm gonna change them just to be popular.

  And that is the precise reason why I post such topics. Just a short example:

  A teen stretching his wings decides to rebel a little against authority, probably just because he has recently became aware that he can. He decides to take issue with a few things that won't get him into trouble. His decides that clothing, hair style and certain lingo are a good way to express his individuality.

  He gravitates toward a group that expresses themselves with these social devices in a particular way. The message the new group espouses is, "look at us, we don't conform to anyone....we're free".

  Once an accepted member of the new group, an astute observer sees this individual as having even more constraints than he had previously because he then must continue to provide the visual characteristics that associate him with this much smaller group. Were he to deviate from his new group norm, he would be looked down upon as not "with it" anymore and rejected on various levels.

  The person struggles to display the groups' characteristics to a greater and greater degree for validation and acceptance. He imagines he is experiencing ultimate freedom, all the while strapped down with new codes and norms to conform to the group.

  Eventually as the individual grows, they see the failings, pettiness and limitations of the new group, and then emerge as a wiser participant in the larger society.

  The dynamics in those high school groups are alive and well in the larger society too.

  I took serious issue with a deist who tried to claim that his religion was hiearchy free a few weeks ago. His claim was roundly defeated....and I ended up feeling embarrassed for him.

  Many people simply fall for the sales pitch of different groups over and over again and never emerge as a person acting on principle and personal conviction.

  It sounds as though you are a dyed in the wool believer in a world view based on athiesm and don't need validation or popularity to sustain your convictions. If that is true then you no doubt also feel free to change or adjust your opinion should you choose to do so.

  If all of that is true, then you have achieved the only complete freedom we actually have as humans; and that is the freedom to choose your own world view and ideology. What more can a person achieve in this life?

  It is my hope and aim that people leaving the WBTS will see through the hype and sales pitch that ALL groups expound and make educated personal choices based on the usefullness of each ideology.

  After all that we have been through and paid for as a result of our association in the WBTS, the thought evangelist' mantra, "we have freedom and others do not; or "shouting you're an idiot if you don't accept my philosophy", are completely unacceptable in a post JW life.

  People will choose an ideology whether they know it or not, even if by default. My purpose is to point out that there are choices, and you might as well ignore the sales pitch of each and evualate the usefulness of each while shedding the WBTS world-view.

  I hope to debate you and others on those grounds at a different time, so that a greater understanding of different positions will be revealed with the result of people better able to make informed choices.

  Good luck to you, and I too enjoyed the joust.

  Perry