Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church" (page 2)

00DAD

nugget: the buildings count for more than the people who worship in them

I think we just had and "aha!" moment!

Juan Viejo2

My apologies to the court reporter. My contacts located the missing page (page 85). Apparently it was mishandled during the copy/conversion process to PDF.

I'll try to get it back into the mix in the correct sequence.

Kurtbethel - Thank you for reminding me of that point. That is extremely important on several levels. Here's why:

When I was old enough to register for the draft (1961), I was told to go to the office of the local draft board and fill out my registration. At that time, you simply had to register (no war was in progress) and state if you were married, had any children, or required corrective lenses. If you had any significant physical issues, I think you were supposed to list them. I had very bad knees at the time.

A couple of months later I got my draft card. I was classified as 1-A (eligible for the draft). In early 1963, I had to appear before the draft board (actually just a clerk) to update my status (we'd just been through the Cuban missile crisis and Viet Nam was heating up). My congregation servant provided me with a sheet of paper that explained how to request a ministerial exemption as a concientious objector. If you were interviewed by a draft board clerk, you were to say that you were a minister, a conscientious objector, and you would not serve. If the subject of how you could be a "minister" and not be leader of the congregation, you were to explain that Jehovah's Witnesses did not have "clergy-laity classes," that all JWs who participated in the door-to-door preaching work were "ministers" and qualified for exemption. Needless to say, I did not get my exemption and was still classifed 1-A.

A month before President Kennedy was assassinated (November 22, 1963), my wife gave birth to our first daughter. Six months later, US troops started moving into Viet Nam and the draft boards started pulling numbers. I went to the draft board in our town to update my status to show that I was now married and had a child. I also reaffirmed my status as a minister. Two weeks later I got an updated card showing my status as 3-A (eligible, but deferred due to having underaged dependents). Our draft board was ignoring all requests by JWs for ministerial exemptions. Two of our young men went to prison during that time and both were pioneers. The draft board wasn't buying our ministerial status.

We'd often state (while preaching door to door) that we were "all ministers," and that "Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a 'clergy-laity' class like the Catholic Church."

Things have really changed in the past 50 years. The current crop of elders clearly see themselves as above the rest of the congregation, and therefore see themselves in the same way as most Protestant clergy do now. They don't wear Roman collars or robes when they lead the congregation, but they clearly are set apart as something special within the congregation. JW ministerial servants are basically like altar boys and neophytes.

JV

AnnOMaly

The transcript is riveting! Wow. So the court agreed with WTS's legal counsel that the WTS is a hierarchy like the Catholic church! Isn't this what 'apostate' Penton was saying decades ago? LOL!

Just to add: What a shame the Victoria state hearing wasn't transcribed and a matter of public record too.

sinamongurl

PinkPajamasx

Thanks for the info...

sinamongurl

AnnOMaly

sinamongurl - click your IE9 compatibility button. Better yet, use Chrome or Firefox.

I bet these were the kinds of Watchtower statements the plaintiff was attempting to admit as evidence:

w01 1/15 p. 13 par. 7 Overseers and Ministerial Servants Theocratically Appointed

In contrast with many religious groups in Christendom, Jehovah's Witnesses do not decide for themselves the form of spiritual government under which they operate. These sincere Christians endeavor to stick to Jehovah's standards. Overseers among them are not put into office by some congregational, hierarchical, or presbyterian form of church government. If elements of the world seek to interfere with these appointments, Jehovah's people refuse to compromise. Steadfastly, they maintain the position so well expressed by the apostles in the first century when they said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29) Thus, the Witnesses subject themselves to God in all things. (Hebrews 12:9; James 4:7) Following theocratic procedure brings divine approval.

w81 12/1 pp. 25-26 The Light's Increase in Modern Times

THEOCRATIC ORDER

18 Many more examples could be given of the light's increase in modern times, but space permits listing just one more. This relates to theocratic law or God-governed procedure. In the latter part of the 19th century, the Bible Students had a democratic way of governing their congregations; they wanted to get away from an autocratic hierarchical system. But in the year 1938 they realized that this democratic arrangement lacked Scriptural support. It was not in line with theocratic order, which is rule from God downward, rather than from men upward. (Isa. 60:1, 17-19) So in more recent times, by direction of holy spirit, the "faithful and discreet slave" does the appointing of men in the congregations to serve as elders and ministerial servants. (Acts 20:28) These must have the Scriptural qualifications stated at 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-9.

minimus

GREAT THREAD! THANK YOU!!!

bats in the belfry

There is nothing to download under San Mateo Court Trial Testimony – Segment 4 & 5.
Where can it be found?

You search this site for " /wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Court-Trial-Testimony-Redwood-City-76-101.pdf " but this page no longer exists.

You search this site for " /wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Court-Trial-Testimony-Redwood-City-102-121.pdf " but this page no longer exists.

Yan Bibiyan

So Watchtower literature, CDs and Elder Letters are "hearsay" WTF? Wow!

(well, we kinda knew, but to hear it from the horse's mouth under oath...)

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

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