Seeking information re Jer 33:11

by Doug Mason 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    I am seeking information regarding the rendering of Jer 33:11.

    The NWT renders the opening of that verse: "In this place that you people will be saying is waste ... "

    whereas the NIV renders: "You say about this place, 'It is a desolate place ... '".

    Which rendering is correct?

    Do the MT, LXX and other sources agree?

    Thanks,

    Doug

  • tec
    tec

    http://bible.cc/jeremiah/33-10.htm

    You can compare all the verses you like on this site, to all the other bible translations :)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Tammy, thank you.

    The NWT says the people will be saying certain things whereas the NIV says they are already saying those things.

    Renderings at that site exhibit a similar divergence.

    Is the reason grammatical, use of variant sources, eisegetical or exegetical? Were the people speaking of their own time, or proleptically? Were they using hyperbole? Is the text so loosely phrased that it is not possible to know what was originally intended?

    Doug

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Apologies! apologies.

    I did mean Jer 33:10 and not Jer 33:11.

    Doug

  • tec
    tec

    A lot of the times (not all) I choose the meaning that can fit both translations, like a synonym, over a meaning that suits just one translation. In this case, I would have to look at it more. But that is what I usually do.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    10

    ????

    ?????

    ????

    ????

    ?????????

    ?????????????????

    thus

    (he) says

    Yahweh

    again

    (he|it) shall be heard

    in · the · place · the · this

    ??????

    ??????

    ????????

    ?????

    ????

    ??????

    ?????

    [of] which

    you

    [are] saying 2

    [is] a waste

    he|it

    without 34 · does not exist

    people

    ????????

    ????????

    ????????

    ????????

    and · without 56 · does not exist

    animal[s]

    in · the towns of

    Judah

    ??????????

    ????????????

    ????????????

    ??????

    and · in · the streets of

    Jerusalem

    (the) · that are desolate 7

    without 89 · does not exist

    ?????

    ????????

    ???????

    people

    and · without 12 · does not exist

    inhabitant[s] 3

    ????????

    ?????????

    and · without 45 · does not exist

    animal[s]

    [1]

    10

    ο?τως

    ε?πεν

    κ?ριος

    ?τι

    ?κουσθ?σεται

    τ?

    τ?π?

    thus, so

    to say, speak

    lord

    yet, still

    to hear

    in

    the

    place

    Thus

    said

    the LORD:

    yet 2

    There shall be heard 1

    in

    place 2

    το?τ?

    ,

    ?

    ?με?ς

    λ?γετε

    ?ρημ?ς

    ?στιν

    this

    who, which, that

    you

    to say

    wilderness, desert

    to be, exist, happen

    this 1

    of which

    you

    say,

    a wilderness 2

    "It is 1

    ?π?

    ?νθρ?πων

    κα?

    κτην?ν

    ,

    π?λεσιν

    Ιουδα

    κα?

    from, by reason of

    man, mankind

    and

    cattle, herd

    in

    city

    Judah

    and

    (apart) from

    humankind

    and

    cattle

    in

    (the) cities

    of Judah

    and

    ?ξωθεν

    Ιερουσαλημ

    τα?ς

    ?ρημωμ?ναις

    παρ?

    τ?

    μ?

    from without

    Jerusalem

    the

    to desolate, desert

    beside

    the

    no, not

    outside

    Jerusalem

    that

    are deserted,

    with the result that

    no 2

    ε?ναι

    ?νθρωπον

    κα?

    κτ?νη

    to be, exist, happen

    man, mankind

    and

    cattle, herd

    there are 1

    humankind

    and

    cattle,

    [2]

    BibleWorks Version:

    NWT Jeremiah 33:10 This is what Jehovah has said, In this place that YOU people will be saying is waste without man and without domestic animal, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolated without man and without inhabitant and without domestic animal, there will yet be heard

    WTT Jeremiah 33:10 ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ??????????

    LXT Jeremiah 40:10 ο?τως ε?πεν κ?ριος ?τι ?κουσθ?σεται ?ν τ? τ?π? το?τ? ? ?με?ς λ?γετε ?ρημ?ς ?στιν ?π? ?νθρ?πων κα? κτην?ν ?ν π?λεσιν Ιουδα κα? ?ξωθεν Ιερουσαλημ τα?ς ?ρημωμ?ναις παρ? τ? μ? ε?ναι ?νθρωπον κα? κτ?νη

    LXE Jeremiah 33:10 Thus saith the Lord; There shall yet be heard in this place, of which ye say, it is destitute of men and cattle, in the cities of Juda, and <1> in the streets of Jerusalem, the places that have been made desolate for want of men and cattle,

    VUL Jeremiah 33:10 haec dicit Dominus adhuc audietur in loco isto quem vos dicitis esse desertum eo quod non sit homo et iumentum in civitatibus Iuda et foris Hierusalem quae desolatae sunt absque homine et absque habitatore et absque pecore

    DRA Jeremiah 33:10 Thus saith the Lord: There shall be heard again in this place (which you say is desolate, because there is neither man nor beast: in the cities of Juda, and without Jerusalem, which are desolate without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast)


    [1] van der Merwe, C. (2004; 2004). The Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible; Bible. O.T. Hebrew. (Je 33:10). Logos Research Systems, Inc.

    [2] Tan, R., deSilva, D. A., & Logos Bible Software. (2009). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint (Je 40:10). Logos Bible Software.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Doug,sorry about the Hebrew and Greek fonts. They don't transfer that well. According to the tenses: Yahweh said (past) of which shall be heard (future) this place of which you are saying (participle)....

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The NWT very literally follows the Hebrew syntax of the MT:

    'od yiššama` (it shall yet be heard) bammaqom-hazzeh (in this place) 'ašer (which) 'attem (you.pl) 'om e rîm (are saying) chareb hû (it is a waste)

    "In this place that YOU people will be saying is waste...there will yet be heard" (NWT)

    The verb 'om e rîm is a pure verb participle, which means it is not used as a participle but as an active verb with either present or immediate future meaning (both are possible, past reference is impossible). Because this is Hebrew, not English, syntax it reads somewhat awkwardly in the NWT. The NIV I think attempts to give the same basic idea in more natural English.

    The LXX accurately renders the Hebrew:

    eti akousthèsetai (it shall yet be heard) en tò topò toutò (in this place) (which) humeis (you.pl) legete (say) eremos estin (it is desolate)

    "There shall yet be heard in this place of which you say it is a wilderness..." (translation of the LXX by Pietersma & Wright)

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Doug:

    I think the context helps explain. Chap.32 places the message there in the 10th year of Zedekiah, about 588 bc with Jeremiah under arrest in the courtyard of the guard. The final siege was already in progress. Chap.33 is sometime later, with Jeremiah still in custody, and thus, presumably, the siege is still in progress, but more advanced.

    33:10 descibes "this place," which includes "the cities of Judah" and "the streets of Jerusalem." The description is of them being "desolated without man and without inhabitant and without domestic animal." (J A Thompson rendering in NICOT is "Once again there shall be heard in this place of which you say, 'It is a waste without man or beast,' that is, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem which are desolate, without a man or a beast." - Thus, Thompson has both the people and Jehovah as using the present tense for the desolate condition.)

    If the chronological timing of the chapter is as stated, then, the answer to the question of the tenses of the verbs is YES ... and NO. (kidding a little) Most, if not all of the "cities of Judah" were already as described. Jerusalem itself was probably already a well advanced wreck, with many dead and most of the eatable animals consumed by now (and some of the children too. - Cmp De 28:52, 53)

    Some other things to consider are: Since Jeremiah was under arrest and the remaining Jews in Jerusalem were busy dealing with the siege, most of them would not even hear the message Jeremiah received until the words could be spoken literally. Also, I think there is a little poetic license involved since, in the strictest sense, a person couldn't say about "this place" that it was "without man," since the one saying that would himself be evidence that "this place" had at least one inhabitant.

    My personal take on Hebrew (not being an expert of any kind) is that one has to be careful not to expect the exactness you would expect, say, in mathematics. And careful not to rule out the possibility of exactness. Such is language.

    Hope this is useful some.

    Take care.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Leolaia:

    Thanks for that explanation of the Hebrew. I wonder if you could put all you know in a book. I'd sure like to buy it.

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