Atheism (page 14)

Flat_Accent

can you please explain to me the difference between proof and evidence?

Well we live in a time when believers are building political power and pushing to enforce bizarre laws based on a belief of a person they cannot prove exists. Some are trying to infiltrate science classes and keep our children in ignorance. Most on this board are not of that ilk, but the moderates and liberals make the exitence of the extremes possible.

Also there are lurkers who are trying to redifine their worldview. I personally believe that the more secular people there are, the better off we all are. If they are reading, and considering the ideas, then we may gain another secular person. I just see this as good.

Now if they latch onto a liberal or moderate viewpoint, then they have already accepted a view for which there is no evidence. Once they have fallen into this, then they are primed to accept more and more extreme ideas without evidence. When a person is willing to just take things on faith, we really cannot predict where they might end up. I mean, where does it stop? That's an individual thing, but I personally feel that during these times, if someone can come out strongly for critical thinking and give permission to question what once could not be questioned, then we have offered them another tool to navigate the influx of information and pressure that they will now have to deal with since their beliefs are not spelled out.

On a larger scale, I believe that the more people that insist on evidence, that can break down any idea critically, that take nothing on faith, then the better for us all. Belief without proof has hampered an awful lot of progress throughout the ages. And while beleivers on the board will insist that they will not hamper anything, I say that the same process that allows one to believe without proof is the same process that allows one to become extreme. Not that they will personally, but the process is the same.

NC

tec

Evidence is what you base your conclusions upon, even if those conclusions might change, as new knowledge and evidence is presented.

There is personal evidence, anecdotal evidence, scientific evidence, circumstantial evidence, testimonial evidence... perhaps more, but maybe that helps to make my point.

Peace,

tammy

cofty

That's a very low standard of evidence you are proposing Tec

Flat_Accent

Right.. but they all fall under the word 'proof' as well. That's what I didn't understand. Didn't really want to get into a quibble over semantics here. But because you said " I did not say without evidence. I said without proof."

Proof = Evidence, the definitions are synonymous.

Berengaria

I guess the same questions could be asked of any political discussion. Or any discussion at all. What's the point? Some of us like to discuss and debate---sometimes for the sake of debate---and sometimes because we feel that certain views are harmful to all.
I think this comes very close to the reason. And I'm sorry if christians feel like they are being attacked.
It seems to me that most religions, and atheism, are not actively pursuing recruits. Christians are. It's the prime directive, and always has been. I think for the most part, it's all a reaction. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Missionaries galore, taking over the political realm.........................and on and on and on. The rest of us are finally trying to push back.
and sometimes because we feel that certain views are harmful to all.
Precisely

tec

Cofty, I did not pull those types of evidence out of nothing. Those are types of evidence. I did not create them. If all evidence was proof, then there would be no weighing of the evidence. It would simply be proof. 1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis. 2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face. 3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law. tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es 1. To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove. 2. To support by testimony; attest. I also do not want to quibble, but if the only thing that ever counted as evidence was proof... then no evidence would ever be overturned or discarded or proven untrue... or tested for that matter to begin with. Peace, tammy

NewChapter

Or look at it from some personal experiences. I had a close friend as a teenager. She openly identified herself as a Christian, but she was pretty liberal about it. She was one of those nice and harmless Christians. So she accepted the existence of a god without proof. Along came a more conservative Christian, and using her already trusting belief that there was a god that she had to answer to, pointed out some scriptures that changed her view on the appropriate way to worship that god. A bit later, she moved to the bible belt, and armed with her unprovable notion of a god, an extremely conservative group got their hands on her. Since she never challenged the basic premise, that there was a god, she was vulnerable to their interpretation of what that god expected of her. And this god is open to a great deal of interpretation, because that is all that it is---interpretation.

As time went on, she pulled away from her friends in favor of these church people. She had always been a great friend, and so VERY loving to her parents! She put us all to shame in that category. She ended up tellling her father (who she just adored) that she loved him, but he was going to hell. The next step was that this group wanted her to abandon her roommates, and move in with some wholesome church people. They also thought it would have been a good idea to manage her money. I don't know all the details after this, but it was before cell phones, and the story is that the long distance bills were astronomical. They pulled her away (the ones that loved her) but after that she lived with recurring guilt and fear. You see, she still thought they were right about everything, and therefore she lived with anxiety.

What would have happened if she had simply critically looked at the existence of a god? She would have found no proof. Instead she entered into a major mind f**k, and told her father he was going to hell. I can't even imagine her saying such a thing--cuz she was always one of those nice christians just living under the tiny, harmless delusion that there was a god.

ME: I never questioned the existence of a god. Because I lived my life with that unprovable premise, I too was vulnerable to any interpretation of that god. Because again, god is nothing but interpretation. It first started disrupting my life with the hellfire teaching. Well if I didn't have the critical thinking skill and confidence to debunk the whole god theory, I certainly did not have the skill to debunk hellfire. Along came JW's and showed me there was no hellfire. What a relief. I needed others to tell me, because I had never taken it on myself to prove things to me. I lacked confidence. So what followed was 20 years in a cult---all based on the seed and inaccuracy that a god exists and I am culpable to it. The anxiety, guilt, depression that followed hurt all in my life, not just me.

Once you suspend critical thinking, there is no way to predict where you will end up. Think critically about everything, and you have protection. Let it go for just one thing and the sky (or hell) is the limit.

NC

cofty

personal evidence, anecdotal evidence, scientific evidence, circumstantial evidence, testimonial evidence

What do you think science is Tec?

tec

Science, I assume, is made of scientific evidence and observation. Testimonial evidence might compel a scientist(s) to further research and examine something, though. The conclusions drawn from such things tends to be what changes... or new evidence is discovered.

But what point are you trying to make with me? I stated that I don't have scientific proof to offer anyone in a discussion about God or no God. Other forms of evidence (which might be accepted or rejected, yes), but not scientific proof.

Peace,

tammy

Atheism

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