Atheism

by avatar 837 Replies latest jw friends

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  NewChapter

  I remember when my brother was an atheist and I was a believer. He was an atheist since he was 8, and I considered him a strange being that I poked with sticks now and then. I used to feel so frustrated with him because he seemed arrogant, would not respect my beliefs, would not back down and it generally really pissed me off that he couldn't concede that maybe some of my points were pretty damn good.

  Now that I'm on this side of it, I totally understand! It makes so much sense to me. It wasn't that he was withholding respect for my beliefs, but he was just being absolutely honest and simply could not, under any circumstances, respect my beliefs. Me asking him to was asking him to be a different person. But in every other area of life, he respected me a great deal! His friends and girlfriends commented on it frequently. They were kind of blown away by it, and told me that if anyone said anything mildly negative about me, he was all over them.

  He and I have had HUGE falling outs, where I was sure he had talked to others and put me down. Never. Even those closest to him were stunned that we were even fighting. Because his respect of me never waivered. And I was all hung up that he wouldn't respect my beliefs, completely dismissing the reality before me. He respected me. It was my beliefs he held in disdain. But it didn't feel that way to me. Now I understand.

  NC
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  talesin

  NC -- I was not talking about you. You are definitely NOT passive-aggressive. And my NO, was in answer to FHN's question ? Do you ever cringe ...

  Sorry I wasn't more clear.

  xo

  tal
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  NewChapter

  TS---when I was told what PA meant, I did not think you were talking about me. No worries! As I said, I'm definitely NOT passive.

  I do deal with a PA in my daily life and it is just miserable. LOL I don't generally cringe at confrontation, although I don't seek it out. But to have someone continually play manipulative games instead of just coming forward and stating the problem and being honest about it, just puts me at a loss. Anyway---a PA thread would be fun, and maybe would give me some insight on how to deal with it. Another day. . .
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  NewChapter

  Oh and for the record, Dr. Phil's voice really irritates me. I think he does it on purpose.
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  talesin

  I'm not a fan of Dr. Phil. It's true, as Palm said, a lot can be learned from his show if you watch with discernment, but I do not like his insistence that CBT is the only way (cognitive behavioural therapy) ie., "Behave your way to success". That is only *one* tool of therapy, but is rarely effective on its own. We call him Dr. Feel... hehehe

  I will give you one quick tip,,, and you already do this --- Keep asking the same question. When someone tries to deflect the issue, or answers with a question, do not acknowledge their comment. Just repeat your question again. This is what one therapist taught me. Don't let them change the subject. Keep coming back with the same question. This can be particularly effective at work. "Lessons learned in therapy." :))

  t
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  NewChapter

  I DO do that already! Yayyy. I got something right. My brother who lives with me (not the atheist brother above) is the passive/aggressive one. He will do ANYTHING to avoid the questions. My goodness, the strange and unrelated tangents, the out of the blue questions, the purposely not understanding---soooo irritating. So I'll let him go on and on, and when it all winds down, I'll say---but that still doesn't tell me . . .

  It starts over again. It's really hard to keep focus and not be pulled off into trivial crap that has nothing to do with the original issue, but on good days, I'm good at it. I get frustrated because we could save so much time if we didn't have to do the dance.

  Ah well.

  I used to watch dr. phil. He said some useful things---but his voice still irritates me.

  NC
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  Spectre

  Oh, this tread looks like its going to be fun to go back and read.
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  Qcmbr

  NC - well debated and very pertinent personal experiences. Thank you.

  I totally concur that - as an atheist - when discussing / arguing with believers about their worldview no matter how many times they want to get personal and rude the overriding emotion I get is not personal hurt or a bruised ego; it is normally frustration and pity that someone is left so bereft of valid material argument that they have can concede the lack of evidence and still think that they are right and then wonder why their precious worldview just got so mauled. The one recent exception to this was when one obnoxiously rude, self-styled, prophetess - who has thankful gone and got a proper job - decided to bad mouth my wife. That hurt.

  I used to get hurt badly in forums (including this one - those who see a change in tone maybe need to go back and see some of the rumpuses Abaddon and Teropod Sapien got involved in) when deep down I knew I didn't have a valid argument, the hurt was not what people said but in my inability to articulate anything approaching an acceptable answer. That inner realisation hurt like hell and was manifest as whinging for respect on this forum. As a xian I used to go away and pray for help to defend God and to be inspired by the spirit as to what to say that would open the door to people's understanding of Jesus and faith especially after bruising encounters here. At the time I didn't understand why I received no answers. Sigh.
• 

  NewChapter

  when discussing / arguing with believers about their worldview no matter how many times they want to get personal and rude the overriding emotion I get is not personal hurt or a bruised ego; it is normally frustration

  And maybe this is mean, but I also feel amusement. I just can't help it, but when they come after me personally for my non-belief, I just picture an angry person who has run out of things to say and then says "yeah, well, well, you're stupid". I usually chuckle out loud, because we have reached the inevitable outburst.

  Even in the pages past, nothing was said about my opinions which I have offerd up for debate----but instead my personal character was attacked repeatedly.

  If you can't win the argument, tell the person you don't like their attitude!

  NC
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  NewChapter

  when deep down I knew I didn't have a valid argument, the hurt was not what people said but in my inability to articulate anything approaching an acceptable answer.

  I remember this happening to me a few times with my brother. He would bring out something, so logical, so true, so well supported that it would nearly render me speechless. That is usually when I suddenly had a real problem with his attitude---well he's just arrogant---or he could never understand the believer's experience, he never believed----or he doesn't respect me. It was amazing, but now that you put words to it, I remember exactly how I used to do it! Sometimes I really do forget, but today, I remember the hurt I felt, and why I felt it.

  When he would mouth my beliefs back to me, really to show me how ridiculous it was, it WOULD sound ridiculous but it really made me mad! Disrespect.

  Or he would make the most logical point that I could not argue. I would think---well he just can't see it the way God does---he's ignorant, but thinks I'm the ignorant one. LOL

  I can remember this expression he used to give me as I did my mental gymnastics outloud. His eyes would just bore into me with such disbelief on his face as he watched me flip mental summersaults trying to make it all fit. It was like he was watching a circus. LOL

  Then one day he said to me, "NewChapter, next to me, you are the smartest person I know. I will never understand how you bought into all of this."

  To which I responded "NC's brother, next to me, you are the smartest person I know, and I don't understand why you can't get it."

  And yet, I would insist he was calling me stupid! And clearly he was not, and often commented on my intelligence---but I kept processing his criticism of my belief as calling me stupid.

  And I really think that is what happens here. People hear insult and disrespect, and regardless of all evidence to the contrary, that is what they hear! They simply cannot separate criticism of their beliefs from insults.

  Even when things are clarified. I actually made clear statements that I didn't think that beleivers should be treated like children who needed to grow up, and saying such a thing could be viewed as insulting. Suddenly, I'm arrogant, and disrespectful---etc. It was so funny---It's like we are having two completely different conversations, and I find it fasinating. Well I've been on both sides of this conversation now---and all I can say is that when I believed---I was kind of nutty. Sorry, but I was.

  NC