Evidence for God...

by tec 251 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec
    tec

    Someone asked me recently what kinds of evidence I base my faith in God upon, so I thought I would start a new thread for the subject. Please forgive the length; I was trying to be thorough. I will state up front that there are many different types of evidence. Not all evidence is scientific. Not all evidence is proof... else there would be no need for anyone to ever weigh the evidence. There is personal evidence, testimonial evidence, hearsay evidence, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence, hypothetical evidence, empirical evidence, anecdotal evidence (can only be used to disprove a claim... such as a generalization). Probably more types than those as well, but I don't know of any other types. There are also two different categories to consider here:

    Evidence for a creator/force of some sort - Deism.

    Evidence for the Father of Christ as God, specifically - Theism.

    I will start with some of the evidence I see for a creator/force of some sort. Deism. (Though admittedly, Christ and spirit has always been the most compelling evidence for me.)

    Circumstantial/hypothetical evidence:

    - Humanity has shown a need or desire to seek out the spiritual. Every single culture that we know of, even those that develop in isolation, has had a belief in god/goddess/creator/spirit (s). From as far back as we can trace the beginning, this has been shown to be true. Explanations have been offered that mankind assigned to a 'god' what mankind could not explain. But I cannot see this as being possible. How can a purely natural species conceive of the spiritual/the supernatural?

    - Humans have a fantastic imagination. This is true. But I have never known a single person who can conceive of something that has not been built upon previous knowledge, or observation of the physical world. For instance, conceiving of aliens is easy. There are many planets with various conditions; we know that life exists on planets because we exist upon this one; so there could also be various forms of life suited to the environments of other planets. That is a simple leap built upon established knowledge; it is not a new conception.

    - Life does not come from nothing (or death, which is a form nothing). Life come from the living, and this is a universe of life. Not a universe of inanimate, lifeless, things. I can imagine that 'objects' -inanimate and lifeless - might, possibly, come from nothing. But living things must come from something living. There is no life in nothing, to spark life in something lifeless. To animate the object, so to speak... so that it becomes life.

    Evidence for God, the Father of Christ. (theism, in a sense, though more specific) These overlap with evidence for a creator in some places, but I am trying to do this in an orderly fashion.

    To begin with, allow me to state that Christ is the basis of my entire faith. The root of my faith. Without him, I might reason my way to deism, though in practical application, deism seems not much different from atheism.

    Testimonial:

    Christ is the single most compelling testimonial evidence for God. But what grants strength to his testimony about God? His teachings are truth. Not because it is said/written that they are truth. But because I can clearly see the truth within them when I apply them in my life, or see others applying those teachings in their lives. If his teachings are true, if his deeds are true, then compelling weight is added to the truth of his testimony about God. As well, the corroborating and various written accounts both within and without the bible, giving testimony toward Christ, carry further weight to the validity of the existence of the man, as well as his teachings and his deeds and his testimony.

    Personal evidence:

    The above testimonial evidence is likened more to hearsay... which is still evidence, though it must be weighed very carefully. Which is why I weight it against the truth of the teachings (and one other thing that I will get to). Hearsay in this sense is unavoidable, however, since it has been two thousand years since those who walked with Christ have died (and since Christ walked in the flesh, Himself). However, direct testimonial evidence is of a personal nature, at least it is right now. This is the reason I place it under personal evidence, instead of under testimonial evidence alone. But it is testimonial evidence, to the person given that evidence.

    The Spirit of Christ speaks.

    He has spoken to me (and of course many others as well). Sometimes, the spirit speaking comes as a reminder... perhaps the memory of a scripture, perhaps of an event or experience. Sometimes the spirit speaking comes in the form of understanding granted. An answer to a question posed in prayers. And sometimes the spirit speaking comes by way of His voice. A quiet, calm, and sure inner voice. One that you know is not your own. I accept 100%, the hearsay testimonial evidence, only when the Spirit confirms it to me. (direct testimonial evidence) The rest I test according to the Spirit of love, mercy, and forgiveness.

    In the evidence for Deism above, it is the Spirit who told me about life not coming from nothing. I had been considering all things that people spoke of on here, and I asked if I was making things more difficult, more complex than they had to be. Was it more complicated, adding a creator to the equation? This is one of the few times that I received an immediate answer from the Spirit. I hadn't even consciously been directing my question toward my Lord, but I was calm and accepting in facing whatever seemed the more logical response.

    His answer actually came in the form of a question (might not be the exact wording; it was a little while ago):

    "Is it so inconceivable that life comes from the living? Does it seem more plausible that the living comes from death, or nothing (since death is nothing)?"

    I listened more, but I understood the truth revealed to me. A dead thing might come from nothing... but a living thing must come from life.

    So hearing in spirit is personal evidence, evidence for me, and the truth in what He shares allows me to trust what I hear from Him. At no time - ever -has he ever told me something untrue, or not beneficial. I mess up when I do NOT listen to what He directs or teaches. And the answers to my questions always come... not always right away as in the case above, but they do come. So I also trust when I must wait, that the answers are there, and will come when the time is right.

    He also once revealed to me something that science is just beginning to hypothesize around. I started a thread on it here, a while ago... concerning 'putting on or taking off the flesh'. I tend to think that the true lesson was that often we think two different statements or beliefs are in conflict. When actually, both are true. We simply lack the understanding to see 'the bridge' between two seemingly conflicting ideas. So I don't worry so much anymore, if some things do not seem to 'fit'.

    I do, however, think that this post is long enough. If anyone wants to get into that, I will resurrect that old thread. (pun intended, which you will only understand if you read the thread I am speaking about, lol)

    Peace to all,

    tammy

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Hi Tammy.

  • tec
    tec

    Hi James :)

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The answer has to be nothing but ..... - Humans have a fantastic imagination.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I would suggest dear Tammy that the evidence you present is enough for you to believe, and many more like you around the World.

    It is not of sufficient quality for those of us who are not "believers", by "believer" I mean someone who accepts as true a proposition or idea without testable proof backed up by tested facts.

    On your kind of evidence it would be possible for you to believe in any god.

    Just because a belief has been held by many people for millenia it does not make it true.

    I do not believe in anything, in the sense I give above, I think such belief is both pointless and foolish.

    I only trust that which is True, something is not "true" unless evidence of high enough quality is available, the kind of evidence that would satisfy a Court whose Judges come from a scientific background.

    On that basis there is no evidence for God.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Tec - inevitable questions -

    • what is your boundary for life? For example is a virus life? Is a single cell life or must it be in concert with other cells before it gains that status (i.e. a body)?
    • How do you feel about the concept that the human body is made up of many different lives without which we would cease to be able to function (bacteria digesting food in your gut for you) - in fact while there are roughly 10 trillion human cells in your body you are carrying 100 trillion microbial cells along for the ride, in other words you are 'legion'?
    • Why do you suggest that a plank of your life argument is that life doesn't come from nothing? This is pretty much a given on both sides of the debate. Rather it is the bible that suggests that dirt was the foundation of life which odly enough may well be the closest that science ever gets to agreeing with the bible 'facts'.
    • What do you mean Jesus' statements are true? I can see several that aren't open to the dichotomy of true or false but must be contextualised( render unto ceaser for example - sometimes you have to rebel against a tyrant). I can also see several that are false (All things you ask in prayer , believing, you will receive). There are even some statements that are simply dangerous (turn the other cheek - not a valid instruction in most cases.)
    • Jesus didn't speak on several critical issues (slavery, homosexuality, women's rights etc.) How do you know what he feels about those topics?

    I used to think that the Spirit told me things as well and could point to several times when I received promptings and scriptures etc. My ability to generate thoughts and then ascribing those to an external entity was a simple skill I learnt early on at the prompting of my mother. Realising that I wasn't receiving one to one communication was a big step in exiting faith.

    Thanks for the effort though - always helps to explian ones motivations.

  • IsaacJ22
    IsaacJ22

    One of the most important differences between skeptical atheists and believers I have seen is that have very different intellecual values. If you watch many debates between the two camps (there are loads of them online) this becomes pretty obvious if you're really paying close attention. It's one of the reasons that it's so hard for both sides to have a real conversation about gods, beliefs, and all that.

    A believer will site all their reasons for believing and then look at the atheist camp, confident that they've made a powerful argument for believing. But the atheists will just shrug because none of it is convincing or powerful to us. Then the atheists respond feeling the same way about their arguments against believing, but the believers are just as unimpressed. It's often the same way with evolution versus creationism, too.

    I don't think this post will convince anyone who doesn't already believe that they should. Not that this was necessarily your goal.

    Still, the differences between the camps are interesting on their own.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    Tammy, as an observation, from what you have said it appears that although you have faith in Christ, you are in many ways a Modern Deist with a reason-based faith. Your spiritual belief guides all aspects of your life and how you treat other people. You tolerate diversity of thought among fellow Christians, other faiths and non-believers. You accept the findings of science, philosophy, psychology, evolution, and integrate a modern approach with the ancient wisdom and the discoveries of the present.

    You observe nature and your own personal experiences to arrive at a unique view of Christianity and your view of God. You are choosy about which part of the Bible you will accept as inspired, and decide for yourself whether a scripture is literal or mystical. This sometimes brings you into conflict with traditional or fundamentalist Christians. You base your conclusions on subjective evidence and personal revelation. Any gaps that exist at present are bridged with faith.

    Fundamental Christians buy a Christian quilt from one of the major stores. Whereas you seem to have hand-made a colourful patchwork quilt from pieces of material you have collected over the years. To this you add your own kind and generous nature. Such a possession always has a warmer emotional appeal.

  • Flat_Accent
    Flat_Accent

    - Humanity has shown a need or desire to seek out the spiritual. Every single culture that we know of, even those that develop in isolation, has had a belief in god/goddess/creator/spirit (s). From as far back as we can trace the beginning, this has been shown to be true. Explanations have been offered that mankind assigned to a 'god' what mankind could not explain. But I cannot see this as being possible. How can a purely natural species conceive of the spiritual/the supernatural?

    I'll put it another way: Humanity has a desire for answers. Based upon the knowledge of the time, good and bad answers have been given. The idea of God has been around for eons, and it was by no means exclusive to the bronze age Palestinians. There were countless gods BEFORE those original 'Jews' left Canaan and built their own towns and cities. You're also suggesting that it was only at this point that God in his true form presented himself, after 90,000 years of human existence, during which countless other Gods (most of which we'll never know about) must have been spoken of. Humans do have a vast imagination, and it comes into play when something happens that they can't explain. There's an evolutionary explanation for the development of religion. Dawkins talks about it in God Delusion, but i'll leave that for someone else like Cofty to cover. Think about all the fairy tales and tall stories that have been told throughout the centuries. Would you apply the same logic to them as you are to God? There are also multiple supernatural explanations, and not all of them are right, as you'd agree. The Hindu's version of heaven and the divine is very different from yours. So by that logic, yes, humans CAN concieve of the supernatural by their own imagination. You're also begging the question by saying 'if the supernatural didn't exist we couldn't have thought of it'.

    - Humans have a fantastic imagination. This is true. But I have never known a single person who can conceive of something that has not been built upon previous knowledge, or observation of the physical world. For instance, conceiving of aliens is easy. There are many planets with various conditions; we know that life exists on planets because we exist upon this one; so there could also be various forms of life suited to the environments of other planets. That is a simple leap built upon established knowledge; it is not a new conception.

    God is no different. What do you think the Cosmological Argument is centered around? Or Paley's Watch? The structure is different but the conclusions are the same - "That which looks designed must have a designer/ That which exists has been caused to exist" This supposition is based entirely on our own understanding of creation. Humans 'create' complicated tools and weapons, so some greater being must have created the Sun and Lions and Daffodils and everything else. It's also the argument used by the Apostle Paul:

    For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. - Romans 1:20

    - Life does not come from nothing (or death, which is a form nothing). Life come from the living, and this is a universe of life. Not a universe of inanimate, lifeless, things. I can imagine that 'objects' -inanimate and lifeless - might, possibly, come from nothing. But living things must come from something living. There is no life in nothing, to spark life in something lifeless. To animate the object, so to speak... so that it becomes life.

    If you had said this to an astrophysicist, he might reply that there is 'no such thing as 'Nothing''. You say life can only come from pre-existing life. I ask, how do you know? If the universe is full of life as you suggest, then perhaps life is the normal state of the universe, and so the conundrum of life coming from nothing is void, as there is no 'nothing'. As you said in your second point, life is also contingent upon certain factors. If the conditions are right, life can appear. There is way too much we DON'T know about the universe for your argument to be valid. I also see you have no qualms with positing a highy complex, uncaused, infinite being as the creator of everything, despite your argument that all living things must have a creator.

  • Flat_Accent
    Flat_Accent

    Part 2.

    Christ is the single most compelling testimonial evidence for God. But what grants strength to his testimony about God? His teachings are truth. Not because it is said/written that they are truth. But because I can clearly see the truth within them when I apply them in my life, or see others applying those teachings in their lives. If his teachings are true, if his deeds are true, then compelling weight is added to the truth of his testimony about God. As well, the corroborating and various written accounts both within and without the bible, giving testimony toward Christ, carry further weight to the validity of the existence of the man, as well as his teachings and his deeds and his testimony.

    None of Jesus teachings are exclusive to him. The Golden Rule being the most obvious one, people like Confucius said the same thing hundreds of years before Jesus. Liking someone for their moral beliefs does not give credence to their theological ones. How many kind hearted, morally upright Muslims are there? Should I accept Muhammad as the true prophet, because I've seen a Muslim apply those principles in his life? I'm sure there's plenty of decent people out there that also believe Queen Elizabeth is a reptilian alien sent from another planet to rule over us. Do I have to accept both conclusions just because I agree with one of them? Jesus could have been speaking out of his hat when he described God and his qualities, but I guess you can just take his word for it. Or rather, the words someone else wrote down claiming they were said by him. The extra-biblical writings of Jesus do not attest to his divinity, they only suggest that the man may really have existed.

    As for your personal revelation, this evidence will only ever be evidence to you so I won't go over it.

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