Please someone, explain scientifically how an omnipotent,omniscience,omnipresent,almighty GOD came from nothing

by smiddy 107 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JWOP
    JWOP

    Here's my take on this:

    Time is only relative for the physical universe. Since God is not physical, He is not beholden to time; ergo He lives outside the stream of time. Anything outside the stream of time is eternal because it has no beginning or no end (because beginnings and ends are a time "thing"). Since we here in the physical universe have no experience with life outside of time it is impossible for us to comprehend such a situation (because people cannot comprehend that which they have no experience with).

    So, it's not a matter of God coming from nothing, it's a matter of God never having a beginning in the first place. ("coming from nothing" would require a beginning, ergo a time thing).

  • Low-Key Lysmith
    Low-Key Lysmith

    My barber's name is "Smiddy".

  • OldGenerationDude
    OldGenerationDude

    Part of the reason I mentioned that one is acting like a JW had nothing to do with debating or asking questions. It was in demanding definitive answers to questions that neither science nor religion claim to have, and simplifying either or both approaches to life as if to say: “If one doesn’t have the answer then, logically speaking the other must.”

    The original question to begin with presupposes a concept of God with attributes that aren’t easily defined theologically, let alone in scientific terms. Neither a dogmatic nor scientific definition was attached to any of the terms, and as pointed out by others, created the paradox of not being able to be answered on this very ground.

    One of the reasons many of us may have ended up as Jehovah’s Witnesses involved the fact that it is quite empowering to believe that one has the answers to questions most others admit they do not have. The philosophy of the JW views not having a definitive answer to an important question as a failing and in some cases an evil. Their ideology abhors the vacuum of mystery. Therefore the Watchtower approach comes across very vacant and dry in comparison to other traditions in Christianity because it offers study in place of spiritual experience.

    In reality, it is illogical to believe that complex questions support either one approach or the other, as if there were only two options. There are a myriad of options and ways of viewing questions like these. It is not just limited to science and religion. Neither are panaceas. But the ideology of the JW and people who are attracted to such a religious structure often oversimplify the problems in limiting what would qualify as a answer or solution. The “either prove God via science or God does not exist” is to say that only the scientific method can provide valid answers to anything and everything. Such a philosophy in itself is not the result of the scientific method.

    Religion is about embracing the fact of mystery, not about finding answers to life’s questions (like the religion of the Watchtower is concerned with). Non-JW religion is about transcendence, not mere academic exercise. Self-discipline, meditation, contemplation, and mysticism are also fundamental facets of religious life, Christianity included. One doesn’t come to believe in God because of faith or mere belief. One comes to believe in God because of theophany.

    Religion is not about self-fulfillment, it’s about letting go of a self-centered way of thinking and living. It is isn’t supposed to be about judging the non-believer or the believer of another faith. It’s about becoming part of the mystery of life. It’s about reaching and learning that which cannot be reached or learned by mere reason.

    This is not to imply that any religious approach is true at the cost of the views of the atheist. On the contrary, the point I am concerning myself with is that Watchtower “brain-washing,” if you prefer that term, goes far beyond mere indoctrination. It goes to the point of limiting how one reasons, teaching people that one must have conclusive and exhaustive answers, and that adopting one approach requires the total rejection and demonizing of the other (not to mention that possibilities are simplified to “truth” and “un-truth,” right or wrong, black or white, with nothing in between and nothing beyond two choices possible). That mindset needs to be “cured” before one attempts at “finding answers” or getting involved in debates—these things DO have their place. But until one sees that the personality can be infected to this point, the questions and debates will be faulty, even moot, because they are based on a demand taught and inculcated by the Watchtower.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I think it is disgusting to come to an ex JW forum where people are coming to rebuild their lives and shake off the WT, and to consistently throw their pasts as JW's in their face and to continually compare them to JW's. I also think it is incredibly ignorant to assume that ONLY Jw's have certain traits, and to use such a comparison as leverage in a debate. It turns my stomach. Don't attack the ideas, attack the individual and invalidate everything they stand for by pointing out that they used to be a JW.

    I shall step out of this thread to relieve the nausea. Continue your personal attack.

  • OldGenerationDude
    OldGenerationDude

    If you've read the reply, you will notice that none of the ideas are attacked. In fact I mentioned that finding answers and debates do indeed have their place.

    You can also read any of my other replies to see that I encourage any and all choices an exJW makes, atheist or religious or anything else.

    What you may find a problem with is the fact that I am very much against believing that one can find the definitive answer to everything, a panacea, in either science or religion. This is a JW trait, not one that originates with either religion or science.

    I just got off another thread discussing this, but the possibility of ambiguity intolerance may be what you are dealing with. It's not a character flaw but a misunderstanding of what life is like outside of the ideological approach of the Watchtower. Life, whether one chooses to view things secularly or not, rarely has definite answers to everything. There is a lot of mystery to life, and no one has all the answers like the JWs claim one has to have.

    But, as I have already mentioned, I always encourage any choice my fellow exJW makes. I never talk negatively about religion or atheism. I here to help others get free of the Watchtower which often causes its members greater damage to their free thinking than they realize. Never underestimate what the JWs do to us and the damage they can inflict, even on the way we debate things.

    One has only to read a little more carefully and search out my other postings to see that such a conclusion as yours, NewChapter, is merely a mistake, but an understandable one. I've been where you are, and I don't expect you to believe what I am saying today or tomorrow. But eventually, down the path of healing, you will.

    Eventually all of the Watchtower dies in us, if we let it.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    No, you misunderstand me. I wish you would attack the ideas---they are up for grabs. What I find offensive is the way you flit from thread to thread identifying JW traits in others---which is actually a personal attack. And to be honest---as soon as I see you make your many, and repeated, accusations of people still being like JW's I quit reading most of what you have to say. So don't expect me to ever read anything you have to say carefully when you start out offending so many.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    OldGenerationDude wrote: Religion is about embracing the fact of mystery, not about finding answers to life’s questions (like the religion of the Watchtower is concerned with). Non-JW religion is about transcendence, not mere academic exercise. Self-discipline, meditation, contemplation, and mysticism are also fundamental facets of religious life, Christianity included. One doesn’t come to believe in God because of faith or mere belief. One comes to believe in God because of theophany.

    Religion is not about self-fulfillment, it’s about letting go of a self-centered way of thinking and living. It is isn’t supposed to be about judging the non-believer or the believer of another faith. It’s about becoming part of the mystery of life. It’s about reaching and learning that which cannot be reached or learned by mere reason.

    theophany you wrote, an oxymoron infact. First, many theists would disagree with you on your generalisation that "One doesn’t come to believe in God because of faith or mere belief.". Second, many non-theists do not agree that faith/belief/manifestation is indeed the real reason for belief without reason.

    The problem with your assertion becomes self apparent, if that be so then how could one discern from a false God to a true God?

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I understand what you are trying to say Old Generation. Very wise observations that are not meant to insult or attack anyone, but more meant to help each of us with self examination. It's something we all have to be aware of and to tweeze out of our systems. It's just a process that takes time, care and honesty. My daughter told me that it is very hard to shake the WT beating of "religion is evil" out of her thinking. She is not an atheist. She is very spiritual. She probably never will be part of organized religion though because of the extreme teaching of JW's about the evil of any religion but theirs.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    I can say definitely that I came out of the watchtower with a huge intolerance towards ambiguity and I prefer to see this as simply a mistake in my thinking after years of indoctrination than as a definition of myself as a person. This applies to those whom I love who are trapped inside too(that they are making mistakes in their thinking) but it is also their responsibiltiy to pick up on cues when they are ready to confront reality.

    edit: fhn

  • tec
    tec

    The problem with trying to teach others to self-examine is that it can become a finger pointing exercise. For instance, NC is not a born-in. Perhaps she actually came to her conclusions on her own, based on her entire life (as well as the believers she is exposed to in her daily life), and not just her experience with the WTS (in fact I would hazard that this is so). I don't agree with her conclusions, but right or wrong I give her credit for them without thinking that she has been damaged by the WTS.

    I think that is no more than what most of us want, and so that should be given. Disagreement and fair discussion/argument can be had without discrediting a person's mental or emotional faculties.

    Peace

    tammy

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