Paradise earth doctrine - did it strike anyone else as a bit odd?

by sseveninches 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sseveninches
    sseveninches

    I have neglected to read JWfacts.org since discovering JWN a few weeks ago (remnants of the "apostate" defenses in action), but recently I decided to dive head first into it, and it has been eye-opening. Of course, some of the information I already knew through reading JWN, but one of the pages that really got my attention was the Paradise Earth topic under "questionable doctrine".

    Paradise earth caught my eye because way before I started having doubts about JW doctrine, I have always been asking questions about the topic - not to raise doubts (since I didn't have any back then), but just for my personal understanding, and to see how plausible it could be. In the past I have asked things like:

    • If Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer: "let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven", how come JWs say that the will in heaven wasn't done until 1914? This question was dismissed with the remark that Jesus was just telling a prophecy.
    • Between the beginning of time and now, a lot of "faithful" people have lived and then died. Will they all fit on earth? Dismissed as "we'll see".
    • If the earth isn't already full when everyone is ressurected, people will have babies until the earth's capacity is reached, and then what? People will surely not have the desire to have babies anymore, due to God being in control.
    • So when the earth is filled, then what happens? The same group of people will forever live on the earth, with no one else getting a chance to see the light of day? Unanswered.
    • When exactly does this "1000-year rule" take place? Since 1914, or at a later date? Unanswered.
    • How can Matthew 5:3, 5 be referring to two groups of people when both should be sharing the same qualities? Shouldn't the "other sheep" and the "little flock" share the qualities of being "conscious their spiritual need" and being mild-tempered? Unanswered.

    So it was my pleasure to see these very questions raised on JWfacts, as I've been actually asking them to others with genuine intentions of enhancing my understanding, but never got any satisfactory answers. It just made me glad that I wasn't the only one who had these questions.

    Did anyone else on here think it was a bit odd when studying or during your time as JW? It certainly bothered me the entire time. The idea is nice, but I can't possibly view it as realistic.

  • yalbmert99
    yalbmert99

    Everlasting life on a paradise earth? Unlikely ! See this link : http://www.watchtowerlies.com/watchtowerlies_145.htm

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    I have come to believe that the entire (expanding) physical realm, and a significant part of the spirit realm, make up the ONE HOPE referred to in Ephesians 4:4.

    The reference to ONE BODY in the same scripture, also does not allow for a ruling religious clergy class ("the anointed") and a laity class ("the other sheep").

    Even worse, "the anointed" NEVER refers to humans in the New Covenant scriptures where it is ALWAYS correctly rendered/translated as "the Christ". Any humans therefore understanding themselves to be "the anointed" are FALSE Christs.

  • factfinder
    factfinder

    I had no problems with the paradise earth hope. I saw it as being very reasonable. With God in charge of things on earth, the planet could provide for the billions of people resurrected.

    Ressurected ones would not have any children anymore, the population would reach the level Jehovah felt was right for the planet and we all would be given everlasting life.

    No one else would be born after that, but since they do not exist, they would not be missing out on anything.

    It was my deepest hope to see my dear Mom again, meet relatives I never knew, have the security of never losing my relatives and friends in death, and being healed.

    It was a wonderful hope. But is was too good to be true.

  • nonjwspouse
    nonjwspouse

    Life without children in the world, does not seem to be much of a life at all.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Just some thoughts on these:

    If Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer: "let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven", how come JWs say that the will in heaven wasn't done until 1914?
    This question was dismissed with the remark that Jesus was just telling a prophecy.

    The first part of the Lord's Prayer is thought to be distilled from a prayer (the Qaddish prayer) already current in synagogues:

    Exalted and hallowed be his great name
    in the world which he created according to his will.May he let his kingdom rule
    in your lifetime and in the days and in the lifetime of
    the whole house of Israel, speedily and soon.
    Praised be his great name from eternity to eternity.

    The NICNT Matthew commentary has this to say about the opening petitions of the prayer: "In the light of the clear sense of [future] expectation in the Qaddish, many interpreters have argued for a similar orientation not only in the opening clauses of the Lord's Prayer but in the prayer as a whole. ... In fact, as we shall see, even vv. 9b-10 deal with matters which should be the constant concern of disciples in the present as well as with a view to the future: they desire to see God's name reverenced, his rule established, and his will done in the world as it is. While the synagogue prayer was necessarily forward-looking, for Jesus and his disciples the kingdom of God has already been announced and is working its way into the world through Jesus' ministry. In the light of that perspective, every clause of that prayer has an immediate relevance to the present situation and concerns of those who are praying." (Qaddish and quote from pp.243-4)

    So part of the problem you expressed may be seen as the WT attempt to focus entirely on some prophetic aspect.

    Concerning the "as in heaven, so also on earth" aspect, the NICNT (p.247) comments: "The 'aready-not yet' tension is here more explicit, as the situations in heaven (where God's kingship has been eternally honored) and on earth (where it is yet to be fully acknowledged) are compared. The time must come when God's human creatures join his angelic forces in honoring and serving their king."

    A person might argue that demons were still present in the heavens as an opposing force. But that might be trying to read more detail into the prayer than Jesus intended.

    Between the beginning of time and now, a lot of "faithful" people have lived and then died. Will they all fit on earth?
    Dismissed as "we'll see".

    Again, WT teaching obscures the possibilities. The WT teaches that only Jesus and the 144,000 are part of Abraham's seed (which is paralled by Paul with the seed of the woman, and being in the New Covenant) in Galatians chapters 3 and 4. (This is one of the reasons Randy, aka Dogpatch, reccomends reading Romans and Galatians w/o WT blinders on.) Throughout Galatians 3 and 4, Paul links these promises to those who put faith in Jesus, not to a few selected only by God's choice.

    The original promise to Abraham was that his seed would become like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore for multitude. The WT attempts to harmonize this with their interpretation by referring to the 'stars and sand' figure as "an unknown number," later revealed to be 144,001. But if you refernce the many verses that use the 'stars and sand' metaphor, the context always compares it with a "multitude" and contrasts it with "a few."

    If you take God at his word in his promise to Abraham, it would, at some point require expansion beyond Earth, and it wouldn't necessarily ever require an end to children. Perhaps this is why the Bible never specifically refers to 'life on a paradise Earth' as a specific promise. It does imply what God's purpose for the Earth and humans was/is. But it doesn't specifically say that all human futures are based there. For the 1000 year reign, it would seem that humans would be on Earth. But after that is simply left uncommented on.

    I admit that the above is based on little more than accepting God's promise made to Abraham and comparing it with what the Bible doesn't say about the future of humans. Any who want to brush it aside as speculative are welcome. But it does provide a possible answer to several of the points you brought up.

    If the earth isn't already full when everyone is ressurected, people will have babies until the earth's capacity is reached, and then what? People will surely not have the desire to have babies anymore, due to God being in control.

    See above.

    So when the earth is filled, then what happens? The same group of people will forever live on the earth, with no one else getting a chance to see the light of day?
    Unanswered.

    See above.

    When exactly does this "1000-year rule" take place? Since 1914, or at a later date?
    Unanswered.

    Compare Revelation 20:1 - 7. Satan and the demons are abyssed. (vv.1 - 3) Those who rule with the Christ do so for 1000 years. (vv.4 - 6) After the 1000 years is ended Satan is released. (vs.7) Satan is abyssed following the War described in chapter 19:11 - 21. That should narrow down the answer.

    How can Matthew 5:3, 5 be referring to two groups of people when both should be sharing the same qualities? Shouldn't the "other sheep" and the "little flock" share the qualities of being "conscious their spiritual need" and being mild-tempered?
    Unanswered.

    Matthew 5:3 says nothing about "two groups" of people. It presents the lot of all those described. It's the WT that has redifined the terms "little flock" and "other sheep." So the implication of your question is right. A thinking person rightly says; "How can this be?"

    Take Care

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Genesis 9:3 " Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegatation, I do give it all to you."

    Accordin' to the WTS teachin', God will take back that promise, and we will become vegans

    ( Look at all their mags depictin' paradise, not a piece of country ham no where )

    And scince we won't recall the former things, we would have no idea that God lied

    they are teachin' that God is a lie

    Wit' friends like these ( The WTS ) there's no need for an enemy ( Satan )

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Now I ain't sayin' there weren't any vegans in the KH I attended

    I just didn't see none preparin' for the new diet in " Paradise"

    which is said to be as close as the inside of your eyelids.

    At the gatherings I attended. Ham, chicken, and Ribs didn't stand a chance

    that' all I'm sayin'

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    Paradise earth always struck me as a mystical and magical place where Jehovah would lead his people by a magical wand or something. How are we going to dismantle munitions factories and nuclear facilities? Jehovah will figure something out and instruct us. Are we sending clean-up expeditions to the three largest countries in the world (Pakistan-India-China) to help the tiny group of faithful Witnesses there who survived? The only 'plausible' story I heard was that Jehovah would use some sort of zap power and vaporise much of the mess. It's a silly notion, but much better than actually planning on how teams of untrained Witnesses were to become demolition and disposal experts overnight.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Hello there Emily,

    Jehovah's Witnesses may have to dig Sparlock

    out of the bin to work some magic

    those Witnesses who make it to " paradise "

    have a lot of work to do pickin'

    up all of our dead bodies

    Especially if the buzzards decide to become " Vegans"

    After all in " Paradise" there's no need to kill for food

    and ain't nothin' dyin'

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