Monkey: Common-sense is the WTBTS worst enemy, not the internet.
Yeah. That's why I could have never done it without the internet.
How did you long-timers do it before the internet / Ray Franz books / abundant information?
by irondork 58 Replies latest jw friends
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Giordano
In 1958 a friend loaned me a copy of The True Believer by Eric Hoffer....the book doesn't mention JW but everything that applied to other religions was dead on with the society. Here's a quote or two:
“It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible.” "Mass movements are usually accused of doping their followers with hope of the future while cheating them of the enjoyment of the present." It really threw a monkey wrench into my theocratic thinking. I pioneered, got married but continued to read....fiction, non fiction. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich was a solid demonstration that god didn't care about human suffering or was powerless to stop it. The Blood issue was a big stumble and Armageddon was a crock. The meetings and assemblies were so boring I just couldn't take any of it seriously. My wife and I left together in the mid 1960's and never looked back. Here's how bad we wanted out........ 1975 was being suggested as the end time and the Vietnam war was raging. A year or so ago I found this site and Freeminds and got hooked. If I had the internet back in the early 1960's I would have been out sooner. I believe that the 67% of born-ins who leave the JW and bible studies that drop out do so in large part because of all of the information available on the internet. JWFACTS alone is a great resource.
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cofty
After I read the generation change in the 96 WT I I studied everything the bible said about parousia and concluded we had it wrong so I wrote to London and later to Brooklyn. They refused to reply so I felt slighted and decided to research more. I then researched the great crowd, then the ransom and the subject of blood using only WT publications. Then I read dozens of books by Russell and Rutherford to study the evolution of our doctrine.
I only discovered there were lots of other ex-jws on the web many years after I left.
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slimboyfat
[edit post: I've just scrolled down and read some of the poster comments on the thread in question - overall not exactly a glowing endorsement of SBF's logic.]
I don't know about that cedars. I clearly got some encouraging comments.
Skeeter4 said I made "some interesting points" and AlmostAtheist referred to my "plausible arguments" and compared me to a maths whizz kid. Even Leolaia could only identify "one [fairly minor] flaw in [my] argument". Darth Yhwh commented that he "enjoyed" my post and that it was "well written", while Pole acknowledged my point that "we can't overestimate the role of the Internet" in undermining the Watchtower, and zen nudist concurred that "it is possible that the Internet will not cripple JWs As much as many of us would hope." Confession praised me as someone who "is willing to challenge Conventional thinking", Jgnat made the broader assessment that my "posting record speaks for itself", and wanderlustguy noted that I am "not an apologist" for the Watchtower. Cygnus conceded that JWs "will grow, slowly" and TheListener wrote that "I agree with many of the posts so far" while years later saywhat29 still found the thread "very thought-provoking" and wisely observed that "only time will tell".
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rebel8
The dubs awakened me. The wts did. The contradictions in literature, the abuse, misogyny, pettiness. My total lack of desire to live forever in a paradise earth with such small people was the natural result.
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noni1974
I left in 1998 at the age of 23. For me it was a feeling of hiding who I really was and being tired of living my life to please others. I was a 4th gen born in and I simply DA ed without ever knowing about Ray Franz or any website. I was on my own for a really long time and felt very alone. Thankfully I had a really great friend who helped me and taught me a lot about life. If not for her I probably would have gone back even without believing in god. It has taken me a long time to really start living and going back to school is a huge part of that.
I have made 3 really great friends at school, one of them posts here because she is an EX JW as well. One of the other two friends I made at school plays werewolf with a bunch of EX JW's on another board. He was never a JW but he fits in like he belongs because he understands what it is to feel like you can't be honest with the people you love for fear that they won't love you anymore. He also listens to me and my EX JW friend talk about the JW's and he just gets sick when he hears how it really was for us on the inside. I inroduced him to my EX JW friend and now they hang out and talk as well. It's like a great circle of friends. Another thing is that the few friends that I did have while a JW are now out as well and I've managed to keep in touch with my best friend growing up. My third friend doesn't know I am an EX JW. We just get a long really well and talk about normal stuff. In fact I saw her today for the first time in a long time at school and we caught up. It was really nice.
Personally, I think that for a lot of us it really is a matter of finding people who understand or sympathize with you. That is not easy, but putting yourself out there gets easier the more you do it. Finding friends is easy if you have something in common.
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cedars
slimboyfat - if those are the best examples of people 'endorsing' your argument that you can produce, then I really don't need to add anything more.
Interesting how one of the examples you produced was merely someone remarking that you're not an apologist! lol
Cedars
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slimboyfat
That was an attempt at humour actually. I was trying to emulate Watchtower quotation methods, such as:
"This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction. It is designed to appeal to the imagination. But it is not science fiction: it is science. Cliche or not, "stranger than fiction" expresses exactly how I feel about the truth." - Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, 1976, p. ix [Red portion quoted in the Creation book]
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cedars
slimboyfat - fair enough. For a moment there, I thought you wanted us to take your "internet is bad for apostasy, good for the Society" argument seriously.
Cedars
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AnnOMaly
I don't think slimboyfat was talking complete twaddle. I don't agree that the internet means the end for apostates or opposers (quite the opposite), but a valid point I got from it was that "apostasy" is just done differently now. It could be said that 'old school apostasy' is all but dead, but 'new generation apostasy' is alive and thriving.
He's right that pre-internet, when somebody saw doctrinal error in WTS teachings, they talked to their trusted JW friends. Then somebody would blab, a witch hunt would start, the congo(s) would all know about it, sides would be taken, the DFing announcement back then told the congo what the DFings were for, sometimes it prompted an exodus of many, and it would cause a huge stink locally - especially when the newly DFed ones would join up with evangelical groups and picket KHs or Assemblies, shouting about how unjust or misled JWs are.
In the internet age, the "apostasy" thing is done all differently. It provides anonymity so people can discuss controversial topics without bothering or stumbling those nearest and dearest to them. It provides more choice to questioning/disgruntled JWs so less risk of an elder witch hunt, thereby keeping options open as to whether one stays or leaves or how to do it instead of being forced out with all bridges burnt. It puts people in touch with an instant, ready-made support network. It is easier to become a critic and voice your concerns than ever before.
BUT while the pre-internet age resulted in dramatic 'apostasy' scandals which would hit people between the eyes and perhaps gain global infamy, this internet age is quietly, insidiously rotting away and weakening the WTS/congos from within. The apostates and opposers are clearly still very much around ... but they now also include serving elders, bethelites, MSs, pioneers, ordinary publishers or even the inactive who are mingling inside the JW community, quietly undermining WTS authority/teaching where they can, rather than stuck outside angrily waving placards.
As for me, I'm a child of the internet age. JW forums sparked me off.