The great crowd has no mediator. Jesus is only the mediator for the 144K

by blond-moment 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    You're all whippersnappers!

    Point taken.

    We do not need to repeat their mistakes.

    I most certainly agree, but we have to be honest and call this organization an apostate itself. There are clear doctrines of Christ that are being thrown under the bus purposefully to create their own reality. They are a prime example of how a human entity tries to set up shop in God's promenade.

    1 Cor 4 - 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!

    They call their fellowship a "tranquility" unknown to the outside world. Naturally, a group with such flagorant hypocrisy are going to have bitter enemies. To the Watchtower it's all just a game and it has sickened people all throughout the 20th century. Maybe those people you mentioned started with good intentions and then went mad in their own rage. That's where I see the apostate trap to really be: in one's own self control.

    -Sab

  • Old Goat
    Old Goat

    If you think that church doctrines in general haven't changed, you should read a good history of Christianity. Until the last 3/4 century, churches were always in a doctrinal turmoil. It's part of life.

    When you say you're "going with the Bible" you're really saying you're led by your understanding of the Bible. Witness leaders are too. Do you expect to have a flawless interpretation of the Bible on first reading? Probably not. Why do you expect it of Witnesses? For me, the issue centers on a Spiritual Dictatorship among Witnesses that the New Testament does not invision. They've invested deeply in an authority structure that is not biblical.

    What in the Bible suggests that we should expect "those taking the lead among" us to be inspired, flawless interpreters? Nothing. The problem is that they claim an "authority" that the New Testament does not give them. Much of what is said here relates to authority structure among Witnesses. Some of us have real doctrinal issues. Many of those here have issues with Watchtower claims of divine authority. And that, I think, is the larger issue for many.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Matthew 20:28 "That is what the Son of Man has done: He came to serve, not be served—and then to give away his life in exchange for the many who are held hostage."

    1 Timothy 2:5-6 ... there's one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free.

    1 John 2:1-2 I write this, dear children, to guide you out of sin. But if anyone does sin, we have a Priest-Friend in the presence of the Father: Jesus Christ, righteous Jesus. When he served as a sacrifice for our sins, he solved the sin problem for good—not only ours, but the whole world's.

    Ransomer, Mediator, Priest, Propitiator, Jesus of Nazareth serves in those capacities for all. What's there to misinterpret?

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    still the New Covenant is only offered to 144000 or GB.........until proven faithful at death.....and does not apply until then if one wants to look at it as it only applies to them.

    OldGoat....I will not let it go. There is many who need to see the truth and help of this DISTRUCTIVE CULT. Manybe you have not lost your only child to the evil lure of the WTS...... who will end up wasting the rest of her good years until she's old, with no career, maybe no children or husband and the only real family (me, her mother) member who cares/loves whome she is encouraged to shunn ..... to this BS.

    Also, who did Jesus preach to? Was it high ranking officals or preists? No the lowly ones. Who did he include to make up the apostles? Ordinary, lowly ones. I'm pretty sure the only ones who made provisions where the first fruits of his ministry. The ones who were actually there with him in persecution and preaching.

    Oh, speaking of which the GB has decided the bible was only written directly to them...

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    If you think that church doctrines in general haven't changed, you should read a good history of Christianity. Until the last 3/4 century, churches were always in a doctrinal turmoil. It's part of life.

    There are doctrines that are clearly understood in the Bible simply by studying it alone such as the Trinity, Souls and Hellfire. The Watchtower obviously was created by people who had a real hate for the basic teachings of the Church. Their rage in this regard is actually very understandable, but they had no right to create doctrine out of thin air and impose it upon others. Lots of people say that the Bible also came from thin air, but this was not the true belief of the people who ran the Watchtower over the decades. They were sold hook, line and sinker by the Bible which is a Catholic product created in the late 16th century. Therefore they are an apostate organization of the Catholic Church.

    Martin Luther broke the mold with Sola Scriptura and that eventually evolved into the adventist movement. He said "The true rule is this: God's Word shall establish articles of faith, and no one else, not even an angel can do so." What this did was sprung forth a massive movement of related and unrelated groups that were in a deep study of the Bible as an ancient artifact as well as a book of philosophical science. The Watchtower took this progression towards the individual and God (one flock, one God), much like what America was doing on a governmental level, and slammed it back into the old Catholic days. In a wild stroke of irony they went full circle back to a certain man being the sole means of doctrine. That man was the "Bible interpretor." This eventually evolved into what they call the "Slave Class" of today. This class of men who identify themselves as the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are actually Catholic apostates who have done nothing but create another useless and destructive power structure with new rules that they get to control.

    The recent installation of credit card machines into the assembly halls really shows what their original agenda was. To be just like the Catholic Church who is actually their hero. They were actually jealous at what the Catholic Church, and other mainstream churches of the day, had put together. So they took a peice of the pie in the only means they know and that's by force. People who take things by force is because they have a lust for power rather than a passion for truth.

    -Sab

  • Old Goat
    Old Goat

    Mind you wrote: still the New Covenant is only offered to 144000 or GB.........until proven faithful at death.....and does not apply until then if one wants to look at it as it only applies to them.

    I'm not sure I understand your comment. The Governing Body is not the same as the Bride of Christ (144,000 in Witness doctrine). The New Covenant is with all of Spiritual Israel. Not even Witnesses think it's just with the Governing Body. (At least not yet. ...)

    Every church has an eccesiastical structure that they pretend to find in the Bible. Witnesses are no different. I'm at a loss as to know how to reply to what you wrote; i simply do not understand what you're saying. Clarify.

    All of my children are Witnesses. Two of them are Pioneers. One was for a period in foreign service. I may wish they saw the Watchtower organization more clearly. They're grown, mature individuals. I cannot make decisions for them. I still hear comments about how well I raided my children. I shrug them off. I had little control over what they became. The most I ever did was try to teach them to reason.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    I know the GB claims to be part of the bride of christ=144000 (which is silly) the book of Rev is also an apocrypha. Anyone can see that.

    But they have no special reward (apply to new convenant) until dead and faithful if they want to look at it that way.

    The new covenant is to apply now to everyone, not just the special nation who failed anyway. There are many many examples in the bible of that. Adam and Eve, Moses, Judas, the Jews (who failed) .....it's not by special appointment but in the hearts of humanity that has been washed through the blood of the lamb and an "undeserved" kindness. The GB are not special......

  • blond-moment
    blond-moment

    Mind Blown, It is thru their literature. It was made very clear at the baptsmal talk at the recent special assembly. The info is out there, they are a publishing company haha.

    It is not a misrepresenation, it is what the WT teaches.

    "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Isreal, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" pg, 10-11

    "Christ...is the mediator of a new covanent between Jehovah and spiritual Isreal, the "Isreal of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus...So in tthis strict biblical sense Jesus is the mediator only for anointed Christians...The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant" Watchtower April 1, 1979 pg 31 (any idea why the great purge of 1980 happened? hmmm)

    I discuss the baptismal talk from the special assembly.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Right blond moment.... Thanx for posting your vidWTS twisting things around

    Wasn't Eve who wanted to be special and ran ahead of God? The GB certainly have an ego and the ego is what Satan used to pull the great downfall of mankind according to the bible.

    Yikes the baptismal talk... I hope my daughter sees through this before making the mistake of her life....

    blond momnet your first vid has been taken down....

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Old Goat said:

    They're afraid of clearly stating that they've dropped some views. Notice that in the recent books on the prophecies that they dropped pages and pages of previous explanations? But they never say, "all that was crap. We know it. You know it." If they're to remain a vital religion they need a sort of Statement of Theology Secundum.

    They won't do that, of course. They aren't brave enough to put issues that openly. They are reactionary.

    We're witnessing a theological shift among Watchtower writers. There seems to be at least two parties. It would serve them well if they wrote their own verse by verse or chapter by chapter commentary on the bible. ... I doubt they'd ever do it. Fear and a very narrow view will keep them from it ...

    Based on what I see in their recent "Isaiah," "Acts," and "Jeremiah" commentaries, I have to agree. They seem to be moving away from the detail and analysis you would see in an academic commentary. (The older pubs were somewhat closer to this style.) The current style is easier to mold in the direction one wants. From their standpoint, their current style much better suits them.

    Another problem for the WT is that (imo) they have weeded out of their writership the logical thinkers. So they are stuck with a cadre of company/yes men. The publications they put out now show a lack of dynamic thinking. And any lateral thinking is strictly proscribed.

    "The fact remains, on this issue the Watchtower is misrepresented on boards like this."

    And there is actually no way to get around 'misrepresenting them,' as you say. Their own ambiguity and their own contradicting beliefs ensure that anyone trying to argue with them will fall short - in their mind. They have come up with explanations attempting to cover the shortfallings of their own doctrines. So, if you point out that the great crowd doesn't have a mediator, they simply point to bylaw 1.2.3 which explains how that works.

    Some here can point to Scriptures such as Jer 31:31-34, Mt 26:27, 28, and 1Cor 11:25, 26, that clearly link the new covenant, Jesus' death, and forgiveness of sins. So in their minds (mine included), having a great crowd that is not in the new covenant, and yet gets forgiveness of sins, is not a possible scenario.

    Another problem I see is that numerous terms have been redefined by the WT so that it becomes almost impossible to mount any arguement without reverting to using the very terms that they coined. (i.e. meanings that they apply to such) You see that here (not just in this thread) with "The Faithful Slave Class," "Other sheep," "Little Flock," and so on.

    It is much like trying to reason with someone suffering from paranoid delusions. You can never convince them that they are wrong. And any reasoning that doesn't agree with them puts you in the camp of the enemy. And yet, one could understand the difficulty someone with a mental illness has. But the WT doesn't suffer from that. As you said, it is a matter of holding power. And holding to a double standard. Any mistakes they make are simply the 'new light' process. Any mistakes anyone else makes is a teaching of lies. This unabashed double standard engenders anger in others. And rightly so.

    And yet I see a possibility over and above all this. (Luke 11:29, 32)

    Take Care

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