A Pettion for US Residents to Suspend Tax Exemption From Religious Cults deadline July 1st

by discreetslave 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Lore

  Gotta partially disagree with you NC.

  Tax exemption is a privilege, not a right. To earn this privilege, at the moment, all you have to do is claim to be a religion and if the government agrees that you are in fact a religion, then you are tax exempt.

  A bit of responsibility should be required on the part of any organization that wants to be tax exempt.

  If you want to shun ex-members, tell homosexuals they can't join, be sexist, racist or otherwise unamerican, that's your right and nobody should stop you. But not if you want to be tax exempt.

  Ideally the requirements should include: Contributing beneficially to society through charity, education or other.

  But for now: Not being evil. Is a decent first requirement.

  I don't see how this is more unconstitutional. At the moment we are giving religious organizations a financial advantage based SOLEY on the fact that they are religious. There is no constitutional justification for that.
• 

  ABibleStudent

  New Chapter - *sigh* Is this still going on? Is the constitution so cheap that we seek to violate it to ease our own discomfort? A Bible Student would like to have govt. choose favored religions, I suppose. And obviously sees absolutely no problem with that. The entire constitution must be stomped on to achieve this end, but the goal is worthy, so lowering all of our principals and protections is soooo worth it. Until they come after you. Oh, but that won't happen---right? There is no way that such an attempt could backfire. LOL

  But it is moot. It is so absolutely unconstitutional that it will never see the light of day. It stomps on all of our history and turns it into nothing but compost, and therefore it is unacceptable.

  The thing that is grievous is to watch others insist this is the best way. By allowing goverment---and IRS agents at that!---to choose which religions to favor with tax exemptions. Well, that's something I would not want to see. If they are up to criminal activity, we have laws to cover that. You can't stomp your feet and say "they won't talk to me----take away their tax exemption!" because THEY have a right to free association. Our constitution means a little something---inconvenient as that may be at times---and the end does not always justify the means.

  I would support taking tax exemption away from all religions---or at least from the amounts that aren't used directly for charity like soup kitchens---But not for schools. The last thing I care to do is subsidize religious education, so I don't think it should qualify as charity as long as we have public schools. But food banks, utility programs, medical programs---sure--exempt those amounts.

  But when we have lunatics like Bachmann, Perry, Santorum in office---letting them pursue their religious agenda is dangerous, and that is what this would do.

  The Constitution---a real pain sometimes (at least for some)

  EDIT: Had a name wrong.

  NC

  Hi New Chapter, Except for JWs and other dangerous org members, everyone has a right to express their opinion, but can you substantiate your exaggerated claims (i.e., for example, reference applicable Supreme Court decisions or articles in recognized legal journals with hyperlinks)?

  I have expressed my opinion and have provided hyper links to BOB JONES UNIVERSITY, GOLDSBORO CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS, INC. v. UNITED STATES. 461 U.S. 574 (1983) (as well as other Supreme Court decisions) to substantiate my opinion, so that people can read applicable cases to form their own opinion. I am not trying to mislead people by making unsubstantiated claims.

  Your other exaggerated claim that the IRS would have too much power I have already explained to you in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/225398/5/Please-sign-the-petition-to-remove-tax-free-status-from-religious-cults-that-shun. Do you remember what I have previously wrote to you in the quote box below? If the IRS could not suspend an organization’s tax exempt status until sufficient valid claims were filed with the IRS, how could the IRS persecute any religion? If an organization can challenge the IRS in court, how can the IRS persecute a religion?

  You write that you would support removing tax exemptions for all religions, but are you willing to work to promote your convictions like I have been doing? I agree that that no organization should be granted tax exemptions for just promoting a religion without doing verifiable charitable activities, but removing tax exemptions for religions would not protect people from non-religious dangerous orgs.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert

  From the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/225398/5/Please-sign-the-petition-to-remove-tax-free-status-from-religious-cults-that-shun:

  NewChapter - So you would like to use the tax code to enforce your religious ideals? Lot's of people would like to do that. A nice little dance you did there to let religions off the hook when it comes to birthcontrol and abortion. Take a look at it. Study it. Because if you ever get your way, this is exactly the little dance that we will all get to watch. As far as I'm concerned, most religions victimize their members to some degree. So I ask again, may I have the keys?

  Hi NewChapter, If you are willing to write your Representatives and Senators, build consensus with a majority of other Americans, and help to promote a law that does not violate the Constitution and 1st Amendment, you already have the keys. The keys are worthless without working for them.

  Do you hate religions so much that you are more interested in reducing donations to all religions or in protecting Americans from dangerous cults? If any law that is inspired by this petition permits you to file a complaint with the IRS about the WTBTS, than you can have another key. If you are willing to get other JWs to also file complaints, than the other JWs will receive keys also. Once enough keys are collected, the IRS would be able to revoke the WTBTS’ tax exempt status. I know that this will not be as satisfying for you as all religions losing their tax exempt status and donations, but sometimes a little is better than nothing.

  Also, I do not understand why you write that "So you would like to use the tax code to enforce your religious ideals?" Can you clarify why you write this? The only ideals that I'm promoting are freedom of religion and speech for individuals. I'm trying to understand your intentions and/or motivations without assuming anything.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
• 

  blindnomore

  The purpose is to help the Government to see who the WTBTS really is.

  It is a Publishing Company disguised in religion.

  Shunning is focused in this Petition. Now that Candace Conti's case is getting big publicity, it probably more effective if petition is focused more on in this area IMO . The WTS is clearly violating the law for failing to report the crime as required by law. The policy is definitely harmful to society but beneficial neither educational.

  No one is after religion.
• 

  NewChapter

  LORE--the government cannot favor one religion over another----they cannot dictate what messages will get them their tax exemption. What if one party gets in there and decides that any church that speaks against that party loses their tax exemption? They can teach that homosexuality is wrong if they so choose. That's the sticky part of freedom of religon---and favoring one religion over another one violates that principle.,

  I would LOVE to be the IRS agent in charge of deciding which religions I like and which I don't---yessss--- I would certainly love that---but I promise you this---most of you wouldn't love it.

  Doesn't matter anyway---it's unconstitutional. Have fun.
• 

  ABibleStudent

  Hi blindnomore and Lore, Thanks for writing your thoughts in this thread. I was beginning to feel that Band on the Run was right that few members of JWN care about the White House petition.

  Hi New Chapter, In my opinion, which I can substantiate by referring to your posts and comparing them to mine, you are sounding like a really bad broken record. What hidden agenda are you trying to conceal?

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
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  Band on the Run

  YOu are seeing conspiracies when others merely are trying, unscucessfully, to point out that you do not understand basic permises of the Const'n. Nws flash- the Conti case may very well be overtunred on appeal. When the final appellate court carves out a novel legal theory, it is law. When a trial judge does, the judge gets reversed.

  Every religion is dangeorus and beneficial. Before you consider conspiracy hteories, why not ponder while your intentions may be honorable, you did not posess all the facts. There is no shame in it. If you specialized in this area, you would understand it, too. Rather tan impute bad intentions to posters here, why not conclude that your final goal may be doable by other legal methods.
• 

  ABibleStudent

  Band on the Run - YOu are seeing conspiracies when others merely are trying, unscucessfully, to point out that you do not understand basic permises of the Const'n. Nws flash- the Conti case may very well be overtunred on appeal. When the final appellate court carves out a novel legal theory, it is law. When a trial judge does, the judge gets reversed.

  Every religion is dangeorus and beneficial. Before you consider conspiracy hteories, why not ponder while your intentions may be honorable, you did not posess all the facts. There is no shame in it. If you specialized in this area, you would understand it, too. Rather tan impute bad intentions to posters here, why not conclude that your final goal may be doable by other legal methods.

  Hi Band on the Run, Are your comments in the quote box above directed towards me? If they are, w hat conspiracies are you referring to?

  By the way I support all balanced and informed efforts to educate and raise the awareness of more people about dangerous orgs and how dangerous orgs operate. I even wished the best to those people who participate in the activity that you suggested in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/227254/1/Writing-an-Op-Ed-Post-for-the-New-York-Times . Since I am busy supporting the White House petition, I have a limited amount of time to donate to supporting other worthwhile causes. I did have enough time today to write a short message to lauire Goodstein, NY Times religious reporter, in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/227219/1/16-hours-ago-NYTimes-carried-the-AP-story-about-Candace . What did you think of the message that I sent to Laurie Goodstein?

  Although you may not believe that my efforts are well thought-out nor planned, at least I am trying to effect long-lasting, positive, and beneficial change while other people do not.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
• 

  Band on the Run

  Ive stated before that your zeal is commendable. If it were harnessed to something doable, it would be awesome. Not every idea can be accomplished. I thought your letter to the NYT reporter was a good one. I beleive her editor or the ombudsman should also receive letters. It would be good to find out why no comments can be left at New York Times.com.

  I am hoping that the Times will redo the article. Cobbing togehter press releases is not good reporting.
• 

  ABibleStudent

  Band on the Run - Ive stated before that your zeal is commendable. If it were harnessed to something doable, it would be awesome. Not every idea can be accomplished. I thought your letter to the NYT reporter was a good one. I beleive her editor or the ombudsman should also receive letters. It would be good to find out why no comments can be left at New York Times.com.

  I am hoping that the Times will redo the article. Cobbing togehter press releases is not good reporting.

  Hi Band on the Run, Although we disagree about the constitutionality of a law inspired by the White House petition, I do agree with your opinion that news organizations have a tendency to piece together press releases more than do investigative reporting. I also agree with you about educating news organizations about dangerous orgs, such as the Watchtower, as long as the educational effort supports some more-permanent, longer-term solution.

  My preferred more-permanent, longer-term solution is to promote changing USC Title 26 §501 and possibly §170 to avoid most Constitutional Free Excercise Clauses prohibitions. Changes to laws that enable civil lawsuits to be filed are ok, but lawsuits are expensive and burden an already overburden legal system. I prefer administrative investigations/hearings more than lawsuits for cost and time considerations with the appellate court system acting as a check and balance for the administrative process .

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
• 

  Lore

  the government cannot favor one religion over another

  Change the 'cannot' to 'should not' and I 100% agree.

  But behind most religions is an organization. An organization with leaders, employees, customers, investors, property, and products. All of which can be completely regulated by the government

  What if one party gets in there and decides that any church that speaks against that party loses their tax exemption?

  Again I agree, they shouldn't do that. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we just give some government group the authority to give and take tax exempt status on whatever grounds they see fit.

  The grounds for removal of tax exempt status are already laid out in the petition and, if we keep our eyes on it, will be laid out in the legislation that is spawned from it.

  And actually the wording of the petition ALREADY makes what you are afraid of impossible.

  : An Organization’s tax exempt status should be suspended for not less than 3 years that does not promote freedom of religion and speech to its members and employees and instead intimidates or coerces them.

  If you don't let your members speak out against a political party, then you would lose your tax exempt status. What you are concerned about is expressly forbidden by the this petition.