The Use of the Word “Satan” in the Bible

by kepler 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kepler
    kepler

    In the Jehovah Witness pamphlet “What Does the Bible Really Teach?” (WTBRT), on page 28-31 of chapter 3 ( “What is God’s Purpose for the Earth?”) there is a section titled “The Origin of an Enemy”. In the beginning it reads:

    “The first book of the Bible tells us of an opposer of God who showed up in the Garden of Eden. He is described as “the serpent”, but he was not a mere animal. The last book of the Bible identifies him as the “one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth” [unattributed]. He is also called “the original serpent” [Genesis 3:1; Revelation 12:9]. This powerful angel, or invisible spirit creature, used a serpent to speak to Eve, even as a skilled person can make it seem that his voice is coming from a nearby doll or dummy. That spirit person had no doubt been present when God prepared the Earth for humans. – Job 38:4,7.”

    To me this reads more like the Cliff Notes for Milton’s “Paradise Lost” than Genesis, and at that, it does not match up very well with the events in the middle and the end. We will stop for a moment here to look at the quote from Job, chapter 38. The first verse from the NWT reads:

    1 “And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job [my emphasis] out of the windstorm and say…

    4 “Where did you happen to be where I founded the earth?

    7 “When the morning stars joyfully cried out together and all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”

    On page 29 of WTBRT, the epistle of James is cited as explaining how a perfect spirit creation of God could somehow go bad. “Wrong desire may become very strong. Then if the opportunity presents itself, he may act upon the bad desire that he been thinking about.” - James 1:13-15.

    I suggest checking out this passage for yourself to see if this sheds any light on the origin of evil in this world; whether or not it is simply inherent in human nature with which we must struggle, or whether evil resided in eternity waiting to manifest itself in interference between God and man; that one more perfect creature managed to corrupt another in full view of a royal court over which presides an eternal, omnipotent and omniscient God.

    Clearly, since its founding, the WTBTS has been of the latter view. With the 1934 Yearbook I attempted a word count of the number of times its author (Joseph Rutherford) used certain words. Beyond its statistical report, most of the yearbook then was set up as a daily meditation: a passage selected from the Bible and then a paragraph selected from the previous year’s WatchTower publications. Almost invariably the WatchTower quotations were variations on the impending Armageddon theme. Judging by word counts for the first six months of daily “meditations”, Rutherford referenced Jesus 184 times and Satan 126. He mentioned “organization” 76 times, but I leave it a matter of speculation whether this was used as a pejorative.

    As early as 1921, author Rutherford is quick to connect Satan with passages in the Bible Old Testament. From “The Harp of God”, pages 29-30, chapter 2, “The Creation”:

    [Of Lucifer], the prophet Ezekiel says of him that “that he was the anointed cherub that covereth”, which seems to indicate that he had authority over some others. Continuing, the prophet records: “Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou has walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire. Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thous wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” (Ezekiel 28:14,15).

    When one actually reads chapter 28 of Ezekiel, it is apparent that Ezekiel is addressing these words to the King of Tyre under siege by the Babylonians.

    “Thou has been in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond (Ezekiel 28:13). “ The same thing. This is about the king of Tyre.

    Even in 1921 there was a tendency to cite Biblical verses in reverse order to validate an interpretation adapted for contemporary ends. But if you go to verses 11 and 12, you will read the following:

    The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows: son of man, raise a lament for the king of Tyre. Say to him, The Lord Yahweh says this :

    You used to be a model of perfection, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty; ( 28:12)

    You were in Eden, in the garden of God.

    All kinds of gem formed your mantle

    It is hard for me to believe that such a Bible moth as Rutherford could be unaware of what he was doing.

    Now, having ascertained that Joseph Rutherford refers very frequently to Satan in his writings, often citing Satan where he is not, let us check for how many times the Bible actually mentions the chap.

    With an on-line concordance, searching for: Hebrew word “SATAN” in King James version

    Old Testament

    JOB 1:6 before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them.

    JOB 1:7 the LORD said unto SATAN, Whence comest thou? Then

    JOB 1:7 Whence comest thou? Then SATAN answered the LORD, and

    JOB 1:8 the LORD said unto SATAN, Hast thou considered my

    JOB 1:9 Then SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job

    JOB 1:12 the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, all that he

    JOB 1:12 forth thine hand. So SATAN went forth from the

    JOB 2:1 before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them

    JOB 2:2 the LORD said unto SATAN, From whence comest thou?

    JOB 2:2 whence comest thou? And SATAN answered the LORD, and

    JOB 2:3 the LORD said unto SATAN, Hast thou considered my

    JOB 2:4 And SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Skin for

    JOB 2:6 the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, he is in

    JOB 2:7 So went SATAN forth from the presence of the (14)

    [ According to NWT Appendix written by Moses in 1473 BC in parallel with Numbers and Deuteronomy]

    PSALM 109:6 over him: and let SATAN stand at his right [accuser?] (1)

    ZECHARIAH 3:1 of the LORD, and SATAN standing at his right [Joshua] to accuse him

    ZECHARIAH 3:2 the LORD said unto SATAN, The LORD rebuke thee,

    ZECHARIAH 3:2 LORD rebuke thee, O SATAN; even the LORD that (3)

    [1 st chapters circa 520-517BC, later chapters 200 years later]

    1 CHRONICLES 21:1 And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David (1)

    [ According to NWT Appendix, written by Ezra sometime in the mid 5 th century]

    New Testament –Gospels & Acts

    MATTHEW 4:10 him, Get thee hence, SATAN: for it is written,

    MATTHEW 12:26 And if SATAN cast out SATAN, he is divided

    MATTHEW 12:26 if SATAN cast out SATAN, he is divided against

    MATTHEW 16:23 Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offense

    MARK 1:13 forty days, tempted of SATAN; and was with the

    MARK 3:23 them in parables, How can SATAN cast out SATAN?

    MARK 3:23 them in parables, How can SATAN cast out SATAN?

    MARK 3:26 And if SATAN rise up against himself, and be

    MARK 4:15 when they have heard, SATAN cometh immediately, and taketh

    MARK 8:33 Get thee behind me, SATAN: for thou savourest not

    LUKE 4:8 Get thee behind me, SATAN: for it is written,

    LUKE 10:18 unto them, I beheld SATAN as lightning fall from

    LUKE 11:18 If SATAN also be divided against himself, how shall

    LUKE 13:16 daughter of Abraham, whom SATAN hath bound, lo, these

    LUKE 22:3 Then entered SATAN into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of

    LUKE 22:31 said, Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN hath desired to have

    JOHN 13:27 And after the sop SATAN entered into him. Then

    ACTS 5:3 said, Ananias, why hath SATAN filled thine heart to

    ACTS 26:18 from the power of SATAN unto God, that they

    New Testament Epistles

    ROMANS 16:20 of peace shall bruise SATAN under your feet shortly.

    1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 such an one unto SATAN for the destruction of

    1 CORINTHIANS 7:5 come together again, that SATAN tempt you not for

    2 CORINTHIANS 2:11 Lest SATAN should get an advantage of us: for

    2 CORINTHIANS 11:14 And no marvel; for SATAN himself is transformed into

    2 CORINTHIANS 12:7 flesh, the messenger of SATAN to buffet me, lest

    1 THESSALONIANS 2:18 I Paul, once and again; but SATAN hindered us.

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:9 after the working of SATAN with all power and

    1 TIMOTHY 1:20 I have delivered unto SATAN, that they may learn

    1 TIMOTHY 5:15 For some are already turned aside after SATAN.

    Revelations

    REVELATION 2:9 and are not, but are the synagogue of SATAN.

    REVELATION 2:13 thou dwellest, even where SATAN's seat is: and thou

    REVELATION 2:13 martyr, who was slain among you, where SATAN dwelleth.

    REVELATION 2:24 known the depths of SATAN, as they speak; I

    REVELATION 3:9 of the synagogue of SATAN, which say they are

    REVELATION 12:9 called the Devil, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole

    REVELATION 20:2 is the Devil, and SATAN, and bound him a

    REVELATION 20:7 thousand years are expired, SATAN shall be loosed out

    ----

    To give credit where credit is due, I would not be writing this post right now if I had not been reading WTBRT under the direction of an Elder and his assistants who visited me each Saturday a couple of winters ago. I would not have reviewed what is actually said at Genesis 3:1, nor would I have connected it with what else is said in the Bible in the manner indicated above. What happened was that I was shocked to my core by what I saw – and it was entirely different than what the Elder and the Brothers were trying to lead me to believe.

    When I looked at what was said in the Bible and what I have just excerpted in part from the pamphlet WTBRT, I was amazed by the deceit in behalf of attempting to prove the devil's existence, a rather contrarian enterprise, if I do say so myself.

    Genesis never identifies the serpent as Satan or the devil. Satan in the book of Job could be a proper name – or more likely, a title to a prosecutorial presence in a conventional court of an earthly monarch transposed to a celestial realm. There is no evidence for authorship by Moses and the dates ascribed to such authorship are preposterous archeologically even if Moses had written anything himself at all. Anachronisms such as camel caravans abound – and the structure of the book is a poem embedded in a surrounding narrative drawing differing conclusions. This suggests at least two authors.

    Satan as a name for the devil is just as semantically slippery as saying “Judge” is Rutherford’s first name. For in the other instances that ha satan appears in the Hebrew text of the OT, save one, it could just as easily be an accuser in a trial ( Zechariah or Psalms) and has sometimes been translated as such. If all letters are capital, then proper nouns and common nouns can only be determined by context. And even then, XEROX could represent a corporate enterprise or a paper copy.

    The account in 1 Chronicles is the most problematic. In the 21 st chapter, almost out of nowhere, this 5 th century record proclaims that the “the devil made David do it”. King David did a lot of regrettable things as the earlier books of Samuel and Kings recount. But of all the evil, or treacherous things that are attributed to David, this particular incident was so terrible that it provoked one of three severe punishments from God - David's choice (3 years of famine, 3 months at the hands of thy enemies or 3 days of Yahweh’s sword – an epidemic 21:12-13). Remarkably, o nly a few chapters before is related the contrasting promise the Lord had made to the people of Israel via the prophet Nathan ( I Chronicles 17:9-10). David selects the last of the choices in which 70,000 reportedly succumb to plague.

    What was at the base of this issue? King David had ordered a census.

    Has anyone really ever sorted out the inherent iniquity of this deed? Each decade the United States engages in a nationwide tally. The Gospels record a census in connection with Christ’s birth. And the Watchtower’s annual collection of data about itself could hardly be described as anything else.

    The only thing that is clear here is that the author of the Chronicles, perhaps Ezra the representative of the Persian monarch, assumes that the reader knows what he is talking about when he says that Satan urged King David to compile a census. Nothing earlier in the Old Testament gives us any clues. Genesis tells us nothing about the serpent’s connection to God’s court – or even if God presides over one. God’s behavior and description are inconsistent in chapters one and two. And his ability to foresee the consequences of events on Earth is not consistent (e.g, reporting second thoughts about appointing Saul as King). When he speaks in the Old Testament about relations with his people, the Covenant, it is described without any reference to events in the Garden of Eden at all. While some can derive order in these tales, one could just as well conclude there is chaos from which the notion of Satan could arise.

    Yet in the New Testament, we find that Satan has a complete identity as an evil spirit. In the Synoptic Gospels his minions appear to lurk behind every tree. In the quotes from the Gospels above, it is even said of Satan, “It is written…” Where? As well as I can tell within the framework of the Bible itself, initially in the Epistles of Paul.

    In the Gospel of John we have one reference to Satan as Satan, but in Revelations we have eight. By definition, we speak of the author of this Gospel as John, but do we know who John of Patmos really is? The John of the Gospel speaks of a divine Christ who was on the Earth and John Patmos speaks of a Christ who appears in symbolic visions. The Gospel of John speaks less of demons than the Synoptic Gospels. In chapter 8, Christ accuses Pharisees of being spawn of the devil for their beliefs; in chapter 10, skeptics claim he is possessed of the devil for beliefs of his own. I am unaware of miracles in John related to casting out of demons. Revelations, despite much mention of Satan, speaks only three times of demons: worshiping demons ( 9:20), demonic spirits ( 16:14) and a dwelling of demons ( 18:2).

    In seeking an answer to these questions, I have noted what Jewish commentators say about their Scriptures. The Devil is not inherent within it. One has gone so far as to say that the reason the serpent in the garden is the serpent is because at that writing “the devil had not been invented yet”.

    But this is not to dismiss the presence of evil in the world.

    We know evil when we see it, but we know nothing for sure when we are simply afraid of the dark. If we are called as jurors to judge a crime, for the most part, we have a choice of considering that an individual is guilty or innocent; but sometimes we are allowed to take into consideration the expert testimony of those who argue for “not guilty by reason of insanity”: crimes which make no sense in terms of gain, jealousy or anger; crimes sometimes where people have driven off an edge of despair or make no sense at all. There is provision for hate crimes and heinous crimes, but none for demonic possession.

    Are crimes committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol the result of the individual neglect or the work of the devil? Are crimes done in the name of ideology or zealotry the fault of the devil or should we attribute blame to human agents? Are evil ideas at loose in an era the responsibility of those who are alive on Earth or an invisible agent sprinkling them down on us like salt? If a person spontaneously spouts obscenities and blasphemies, do we attribute it to the devil or a neural disease? How about seizures?

    But back to the book WTBRT.

    “The first book of the Bible tells us of an opposer of God who showed up in the Garden of Eden. He is described as “the serpent”, but he was not a mere animal. The last book of the Bible identifies him as the “one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth” [unattributed]. He is also called “the original serpent” [Genesis 3:1; Revelation 12:9]. This powerful angel, or invisible spirit creature, used a serpent to speak to Eve, even as a skilled person can make it seem that his voice is coming from a nearby doll or dummy. That spirit person had no doubt been present when God prepared the Earth for humans. – Job 38:4,7.”

    This paragraph and subsequent paragraphs are filled with assertions which examination does not support. The first book of the Bible does not tell us that an opposer of God showed up in the garden. T he narrator says that the snake had been around long enough to gather a reputation as clever or subtle – but that’s more like Aesop’s fables than an exposition on an eternal being capable of tripping up the work of the Creator. If it did, then there is more duality in the creation and rule of the world than the first chapter of the book suggests. It is Revelation that says “original serpent”; not Genesis. And Genesis says nothing about marionettes, puppetry or ventriloquism. But we are told on page 29:

    “This happened in the case of Satan the Devil. He apparently heard God tell Adam and Eve to have children and to fill the earth with their offspring. ‘Why all these humans could worship me rather than God!’ Satan evidently thought. So a wrong desire built up in his heart.”

    This is a lot of supposition since we are only to Genesis chapter three. This is supposition derived from perspectives that are shared with us in the Bible only after Romans – and after the Apostle Paul had given his world view reconsideration during events related in Acts. Since Paul’s writings precede the Gospels chronologically, it is hard for us to tell if and when anyone looked at things this way before Paul wrote of them himself.

    But as for Satan “apparently heard God tell Adam and Eve” or “Satan evidently thought” … based on

    3:1 Now the snake was the most subtle of all the wild animalsthat Yahweh God had made. It asked the woman…

    The text specifically says that the snake was an animal. Who is deceiving whom and how?

    If “it is written”, then the written tradition is outside of the Old Testament canon and there are several candidates to consider. Zoroastrian documents provide earlier and more detailed discussion of eternal conflict between good and evil, or “truth and lies”. The book of Enoch, alluded to in the epistle of Jude, resembles Zoroastrian writings more than anything else in the Old Testament. My conclusion, based on what evidence I have in hand, is that notions of Satan and the devil grew up after the return from the Captivity and that they are more reflective of Persian Zoroastrian thought. Consider that the second chapter of the first book of the New Testament is about the visit of the Magi.

    Magi are Zoroastrian priests.

    The first Persian monarch acknowledged as a Zoroastrian follower, a worshiper of Ahura Mazda, was Darius I.

    Another couple of quotes from Zechariah.

    Zechariah 1:7

    On the 24 th day of the 11 th month ( Shebat) , in the 2 nd year of Darius, the word of Yahweh was addressed to the prophet Zechariah as follows, “I had a vision during the night. There was a man riding a red horse standing among the deep rooted myrtles…

    1:12 The angel of Yahweh then spoke and said, “Yahweh Sabaoth, how long will you wait before taking pity on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, on which you have inflicted your anger for the past 70 years?

    The NWT appendix indicates that Zechariah wrote in 518 BC of events from 520 to 518 BC.

    An inconsistency, is it not? As are many of the other matters that were discussed above: Genesis 1 describes creation differently than Genesis 2; sometimes Israel’s covenant with God is in force and his people are to remain on the lands in peace, at others it is not.

    Most of what WTBTS says about events in the garden sounds much like the abbreviated guide to Milton’s Paradise Lost, which seems to have borrowed extensively from the book of Enoch to which, mysteriously, there seems no recourse anywhere in 17 th century England. But Milton and the Watch Tower differ on several important details after the Garden. Lucifer by Milton’s reckoning was thrown out of heaven long before the Witness observance - if one can be a witness to an invisible event.

    But I have noticed where the WTBTS remains on message: Satan is important.

    In truth I do not know the answers to all the questions I have posed – and certainly will need help in search of answers from people outside of the organization that brought these things to my attention.

    But if Satan in 1914 weren’t thrown to the Earth which he already “owned”, and if all alive who do not believe as the WatchTower says to believe, or all who lived and died before the Watchtower came to be did not believe as the Watchtower said to believe yesterday, today or tomorrow… If they are not destroyed along with the evil one after re-enacting a variant of“Paradise Lost”, which Satan inexplicably has never read… If more than simply friends and relatives who were publishers and pioneers will remain here on Paradise Earth forever, or bodily confinement to Paradise Earth is not to be eternal fate, but perhaps transcendence as Christ’s words in Mark 12:24 imply ...where would the WTBTS be?

    Diminished.

  • mP
    mP

    @kepler No where does genesis mention Satan by name or title. In the case of the Eve eatting the apple story it only mentions a talking snake. Are we to really believe snakes those simple legless creatures are evil and can talk ? The truth is there are multitudes of magical creatures in the bible. Xians try and pretend there are basically two sides, God and the Devil. Anything they cannot explain must be the devil using this reasoning. Those ancients believed snakes were magical creatures who flew. We can see this in the seraphim tradition who were said to be flying snakes with fire who brought messages from the heavenly realm to use mere mortals. Genesis 3 also tells us that the snake was punished for lying being condemned to crawl on his belly. This of course implies that hte snake did more than crawl on his belly, he flew!. We can also see that older tradition associates snakes with magical powers, take a look at nehastan (sp) the bronze snake that Moses told the Hebrews to look at if they got bitten by other snakes. It is said this "snake" was in the temple for hundreds of years until it was destroyed by Josiah. Why all the other prophets had no problem about this idol to snake has never been fully explained. We also see more magical creatures in Revelation. One of the main characters is called Michael, most xians say it is Jesus, but the question remains, if it was Jesus why not just say its jesus ? Why the indirection and confusion ? The bible is actually an attempt to consoliate many many gods, pretending they are all either Jehovah or Satan. Just take a look at Exodus where Jehovah himself says to Moses he was known by a different name to Abraham. How does one xplain that a great friend like abrham dod not know the real name of God ? I dont personally understand how they could be friends for so many years and yet never introduce such a basic fact such as a name. The truth is the countless names are actually different gods. The roman catholic church has done the same, pagan gods of different peoples of lands that christendom conquered became saints or alternate names for the true god. The same thing is true of the Hebrews. El was a pagan god before the jews were known, and yet he too is associated as Jehovah. So many ancient names had el in them. It seems quite strange that teh Hebrew word for God is actually the naame of anotehr pagan god instead of Jehovah himself. If the jews have been gods people since the time of Abraham who lived in Ur or Iraq how did they mistakenly use a pagan gods name as the word. This is of course all nonsense ...

    If one realises the many gods are actually many gods and not simply jehovah or satan everything makes a lot more sense. The Hebrew OT itself tells us god was present in the great council with many gods. This same setup was present in Greece and Egypt and countless other places. God is nothing more than a heavenly king. Angels are just messengers from the king to the world of man. Kings demand obedience or they will punish. They are never kind or benevolent, they are greedy and cruel. Its easy to see these same attributes in all of the Bible. jehovah is always angry and to be feared, just like rulers today. They are all scumbags, both today and in the past.

  • glenster
    glenster

    The issue of God and gods comes up with the JWs leaders stance of Jesus as a god.

    http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id18.html

    "In Genesis chapter one, God is put in the singular context. He is unambig-
    uously singular, and therefore Genesis chapter one could be said to be a Mono-
    theistic. (Gen 1:1) However, if we look at God’s interaction with Abraham, the
    evidence is less compelling. According to the book of Judith, the Patriarchs
    (starting with Abraham), left the gods of their fathers. (Jdt 5:7) God is later
    to reveal Himself not as the only God, but rather as the god whom Abraham knows.
    (Gen 15:17) In such a respect, God is not God alone, but the god who was wor-
    shipped by Abraham’s clan. In such a context, it is a type of tribal deity,
    that although was worshipped alone, did not explicitly exclude the existence of
    other gods, who were not relevant to them.

    "In the early Mosaic era, the possibility of other gods is left an open ques-
    tion, although by this stage Israel claims that their God is greater. (Ex 18:11)
    This same subtle shift is shown in 2 Chr 2:5, and could indicate that Israel un-
    derstood that the God they recognized was God alone, and other gods were there-
    fore false. This would be Monotheism in the proper sense of the word. By the
    time of the prophet Isaiah, Monotheism is solidly and explicitly accepted.
    'Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I
    am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.' (Is 44:6) Thus,
    the development of the people of Israel to a true Monotheism, appears to be a
    gradual process, with the exception of Gen 1:1. It is therefore likely that
    Gen 1:1 was redacted later than the other examples supplied, and so, the devel-
    opment of Monotheism comes firstly on a tribal level, and gradually advances to
    recognition that the God of Israel is the only God. It is into this context
    that Christianity emerges, and thus Christianity was from the outset Monotheis-
    tic. (John 1:1)"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kevinkor2/LORD
    http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/monotheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism#Hebrew_Bible

    Satan
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

  • mP
    mP

    the census by david is said to be inspired by satan in chronicles but the same story is attributed to jehovah and is deacribe using words and tjoughts as some sort'of test. the truth is the text tries to rationalize how the famine occured and matched the census and tried to make a religious statement.those same fools believed sick ppl and illness were not becuaseo f germs but because someone prayed to the devil or some false god and similar nonsense. the authors are simply making it up, chronicles is a rewrite of kings with commentary, much like mt and lk make up stuff when they rewrite mark.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    To me, it is blatantly obvious that Satan is, rather than being wicked or evil, our Savior. Jehovah wanted to bind us and enslave us, and then throw us away. Not knowing good and bad would allow that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag to do that to us. Then along comes Savior Satan, and blows that--Jehovah, being the sore loser he is, has a temper tantrum and seizes control from the human race, now that they are on their way to liberty.

    Now, the witlesses seem to use Satan's name almost as much as the Joy of Satan. The differences: Joy of Satan is an open Satanic web site and paints the picture of Satan as our True Creator, and Jehovah as the enemy. Jehovah's Witlesses are supposed to be a Christian religion (though I wonder if it's more a hybrid Jewish/Christian religion instead). They see Satan as the enemy, yet they mention Him as much as a site that venerates Him. Does that make any sense?

  • clarity
    clarity

    Kepler .......you've done a tremendous amount of work on this and

    I thank you for it!

    Reminds me of researching after my eyes opened and the pillars of

    watchtower teaching, started to crumble & fall all around me.

    I felt that way again after reading your words about satan!

    Looked back to my childhood (nonjw) and realized that I had never even

    heard about a satan/devil before 'joining the borg' ... just shows how deep

    this crap was pounded into our psyche and needs regular questioning &

    digging & weeding out! lol

    clarity

  • kepler
    kepler

    What often takes me off-guard on this forum is how the tides of contributions shift from close adherence to and extreme difference with JW world view. Maybe a few days ago I might be an outlier in one direction - and then next I am sailing on the other side of the lake from the regatta. A friend once gave me a bit of advice: "Just be yourself, ...clone!"

    mP,

    We might have had a similar discussion a couple of months ago. Full revisit: a topic called Biblical herpetology. But to tell the truth, most of my knowledge of reptiles and amphibians is present day, watching or raising turtles and frogs. Interesting enough as a hobby, but it's provided virtually no practical application. I've got nothing transferable in this case. Suspect though that areas of scientific inquiry, following a specific trail such as farm implements, coins, bricks, stored seeds, etc. tells a lot more about a society than we might initially view.

    Just in passing, I did mention above that camel caravans are supposedly a relatively late innovation in the mideast. That Moses would be writing of a camel caravan king in 1473 BC ( or 1200 BC for that matter) is an illustrative difficulty with such authorship for Job. Other than that it makes doctrinal sense for the WTBTS to have Moses write Job is about the only rationale I can see. But neither cuneiform or hieroglyphic records for Egyptian or Mesopotamian origin are available in support of any argument. So, whether it's snakes or camels, there's indirect testimony about the past. But I don't think it makes sense to dismiss what ancient writings we have by saying that all the authors' motives were base and exposed.

    Glenster,

    Sounds like you have addressed usage of another set of words in the OT. You are right about the first verse of the first chapter of the first book. It is an interesting insert considering that later in the text ( in English) there appears to be an editorial "we": "Let us make man in our own image and likeness." This mystifies many due to the plural, but it also raises the question of what is the image of an invisible god but that of a spirit - And this poses another stumbling block for JW doctrine. Granted, you could place in two columns arguments for bodily and spiritual resurrection - and JWs drill on the former. But what I referred to above from Mark is an argument for the latter. Same with Christ on the cross speaking to the Good Thief in Luke. The edit of this part of the Gospels in the NWT is as blatant as an episode in Orwell's Animal Farm.

    But back to the singular and plural. I am not a Hebrew linguist - and Biblical scholarship has had centuries to mull such matters. But the words El and Elohim appear to be singular and plural of god. The use of YHWH, Elohim, El Shaddai and all the other forms are tracers too of Judaeo-Christian thought. And as I look at these things, trying to juggle in my mind which editorial group was using what term and why, I am inclined to reserve judgment. Things that I read a year or two ago, I would interpret differently now - and maybe it is just a matter of coming up to speed with people at this longer than I have been. But I would be aware of groupthink organizations inside or outside of the forum.

    WTWizard,

    Talking about "opposition"!

    You wouldn't happen to be related to Jonathan Swift? You are not without sharp observation. And I confess that I share some of your anger. Who knows, maybe as much even if I don't manifest it the same way. I guess I don't look as far afield for inspiration or motivation - though perhaps some of my examples sound as demonic to JW trained ears. But actually I am convinced that there is room within Christian belief for further search for truth and room for action as well. Even our sense of fair play is based on the foundation it provided. We find ourselves in a campsite that we should leave in as good or better condition than when we found it. Tough order, but it has to be at least a conscious thought before it can be enacted.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Clarity,

    Thanks for your note. It's the best result I can hope for engaging in this sort of thing.

  • glenster
    glenster

    kepler--Sounds like you have addressed usage of another set of words in the
    OT.

    "The issue of God and gods" re: mP--The bible is actually an attempt to
    consoliate many many gods, pretending they are all either Jehovah or Satan.

    kepler--You are right about the first verse of the first chapter of the first
    book.

    More Wikipedia on Gen.:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis

    Gen. is followed by a romanticized version of the rise of monotheism (religion
    as Mosaic law of the land with the death penalty for religious reasons, homo-
    sexuality, etc.) which became more established in the days of Isaiah (God
    created all--"who was with me?" etc.).

    Likewise, the idea of Satan evolved as you noticed. The links I supplied give
    some more on the history of the development of the idea. Also:

    "In other Christian beliefs (e.g. the beliefs of the Christadelphians) the
    word 'satan' in the Bible is not regarded as referring to a supernatural,
    personal being but to any 'adversary' and figuratively refers to human sin and
    temptation."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Christianity

    "Liberal Christianity often views the devil metaphorically."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_teaching_about_the_Devil

    There's currently a range of interpretations ranging from orthodox/conserva-
    tive to liberal/progressive/reform on that issue and others.

    If orthodox/conservative (which most Muslims, Republicans running for office,
    and the JWs leaders are variations of) emphasizes defense of perceived integrity
    of old interpretations of old texts,

    and liberal/progressive/reform emphasizes keeping the basic God concept up to
    speed regarding knowledge that's arisen since the old texts were written (cosmo-
    logy, evolution, homosexuality, etc.), and keeping faith in perspective as such
    as a hope for a possible God (so wanting separation of church and state, etc),

    I recommend liberal/progressive/reform. If God is there, it wouldn't honor
    Him to misinform or harm unnecessarily in His name.

    That said, I don't mean to force points about preferred interpretations of
    Satan specifically being as it's a faith matter that God or Satan exist. (Like-
    wise, I don't want to force the point about subjective reactions to music beyond
    the objective math of it.) "Satan" can accomodate a being that represents re-
    jection of God or a metaphor of that.

    The JWs leaders not only force points but misrepresent alternative stances and
    reference books. If that's your main concern, I've compiled a lot of evidence
    of that for my site at the link above. But I'm more concerned that an expose of
    that undermines their ability to cause harm to people (harsh shunning, a ban of
    the medical use of blood/major blood products, rules about how to react to
    intolerant political leaders) than that they harm old or preferred characteriza-
    tions of Satan.

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    “This happened in the case of Satan the Devil. He apparently heard God tell Adam and Eve to have children and to fill the earth with their offspring. ‘Why all these humans could worship me rather than God!’ Satan evidently thought.

    The Bible Teach book has this part of Genesis hopelessly botched up.

    When parsing the part of Genesis, placing characters in the time and place described in the text, neither Satan or the serpent are said to be present when man and woman are introduced in chapter one, and told to fill the earth with their offspring. Adam is formed in the next chapter, and is told he can eat from all of the trees except one, but there is still no Satan, no serpent, and Eve is formed after Adam is given this restriction. The serpent shows up in chapter 3, but there is no point in the narrative where Adam or Eve are told to have children, so Satan or the serpent could not have possibly heard this.

    ‘Why all these humans could worship me rather than God!’ Satan evidently thought.

    This is hilarious on two levels. The first is that it claims a character who is not present heard something that was not said to the characters who were not present when it actually was said. The really absurd and humorous part of this is that the writer is presuming the ability to read the mind of that character.

    The Bible Teach book goes downhill from here, stripping the Watchtower publishing corporation of any scholarly credibility.

    This results in Jehovah's Witnesses going out in the field representing themselves as qualified to teach about the Bible, and instead coming across as fools to the average householder.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww75UH2Io74

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit