WHEN 'THIS' MEANS 'THAT', 'YOU' MEANS 'SOMEONE ELSE' AND 'SHORTLY' MEANS 'SO FAR IN THE FUTURE YOU WILL BE LONG BURIED AND FORGOTTEN'
"So he groaned deeply with his spirit, and said: 'Why does THIS generation seek a sign? Truly I say, No sign will be given to THIS generation.'" - Mark 8:12 (NWT)
"Then Jesus said: 'I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" - Mark 14:62 (NWT)
"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must SHORTLY take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John" - Revelation 1:1 (NWT)
When 'this' means 'that', 'you' means 'someone else' and 'shortly' means 'so far in the future you will be long buried and forgotten'
by JWB 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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JWB
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Leolaia
Indeed.
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JWdaughter
Hmmmm.
Alrighty, then!
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Londo111
When learning that the Olivet discourse and Revelation was fulfilled by 70AD, the Bible made SO much more sense!
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JWB
Londo1, you made a good point.
"[S]o that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on *earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon THIS generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate" - Matthew 23:35-38 (NASB)
"'Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronouced judgment for you against her.' Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, 'So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.'" "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the *earth." - Revelation 18:20, 21, 24 (NASB) [Compare also Revelation 18:23 with Jeremiah 7:34.]
The underlying Greek word (ges), from which we get the English translation of 'earth', is found in our English word GEology, and basically means 'soil', but can also mean 'land'. What it does not mean is 'globe'! That is why some people consider these scriptures to reference the 'the land' (Heb. 'ha-arets') of Israel.
Revelation chapter 18 is also extremely interesting to compare with Ezekiel chapter 16 where Jerusalem is likened to a harlot who will have judgments brought against her. -
darthfader
Brilliant thread title and concept.
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JWB
Thanks darthfader.
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"In 331 BC Babylon was conquered by Alexander the Great, who attempted to rebuild the venerated but decaying city. With his untimely death its long decline set in and in the Roman period it was no more than a famous heap of ruins." - Extract from 'Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land' [2001 edition - ISBN 0-8264-1316-1], page 67, 'Babylon (City Of); Babylonians'
Thus was the state of Babylon when the apostle John, the supposed author of Revelation, was alive. It was hardly a magnificent city which would fall as described in Revelation chapter 18.
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"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified." - Revelation 11:8 (NASB)
The place where 'their Lord was crucified' was not literal Sodom or Egypt, but in the land of Israel. Thus symbolic or 'mystical' language was used. Similarly in Isaiah chapter one the obvious reference is to Israel, yet they are referenced at one point as 'you rulers of Sodom' and 'you people of Gomorrah' whose burnt offerings God had 'had enough of' (verses 10 and 11). So, when the Revelation speaks of Babylon, I don't believe it is necessarily a literal reference to that particular place. It could represent a place that manifested the traits of ancient Babylon. Some have suggested first century Jerusalem in particular as being 'Babylon' in the light of such writings as those of historian Josephus.
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Obviously, objections will come from those who hold to the belief that Revelation was written some time after the destruction of Jerusalem. However, the exact dating of that book is unknown. The WTS relies on what it admits is 'ancient tradition', based on the ante-Nicene Church document 'Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian' (Insight Vol II, 'Patmos'). As an aside, I find it interesting that the WTS are prepared to appeal to the writings and beliefs (including a supposed 'ancient tradition') of early 'apostate Christianity' if it seems of some use to them.
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Some of us believe that 'this generation' really meant 'this generation', that 'you' (plural) really meant 'you', and that 'shortly' actually meant 'shortly'. In other words that what was said to those first century people about the future had an immediate connection with them right there in the first century.
This is quite a subject for study in itself, so I will leave it for any who are not familiar with the arguments pro and con to research it for themselves. However, for those new to the idea of a first century fulfillment of Matthew 24 and Revelation, the 'classic' text, in my view, is "The Parousia" by J Stuart Russell (ISBN 0-8010-7725-7). Although this book is quite lengthy, I consider it essential reading on the subject. More modern treatments of this topic can be found which give a quicker introduction into the idea of a first century fulfillment, such as 'The Last Days According To Jesus' by R C Sproul (ISBN 978-0-8010-6340-4). -
breakfast of champions
The beauty and curse of human language. We can twist, transpose and manipulate language in amazing ways.
