What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.

by Bangalore 63 Replies latest jw friends

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    They're investigating according to the reports. I have no idea what the hold up on criminal charges being pressed but the civil suit doesn't have anything to do with the criminal investigation.

    I'm not sure what one matter being driven by a private citizen has to do with the policy bringing criminal charges. They're certainly not waiting on the outcome of the civil case.

    I recall seeing cases where both criminal and civil litigation being carried on at the same time. It doesn't always have to be the criminal case first. And, I remember the OJ Simpson trial where he was acquitted on the criminal charge but lost his civil suit.

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    And the judgement against the WTS was due to their lack of warning. They are not going to be subject to criminal charges as far as I understand it. And I don't think they should be. But, they've got to put something in place that helps parents know when predators are in the congregation.

    I really think this is a continuation of the judgements against the Catholic Church and others. Society in general is sick and tired of institutions not doing more to protect the innocent.

    I also think that if this judgment stands on appeal, it will be used to hold institutions responsible for damage that they may have been able to prevent. It will cause a change in the way people deal with sexual abuse.

  • Bobjohnrob
    Bobjohnrob

    I'll be honest Doubting Bro I do not see this as a landmark case and I can see a lot of flaws that will damage it in appeal.

    He was as the paper articles say only "rank and file" member. He had no special privileges to help him gain access to kids.

    He wasn't on the sex register at the time and only had a misdemeaner against him. Which meant the police themselves didn't consider him a danger at that time.

    The elders could have had no more knowledge than the police about him.

    His sexual abuse history is from among his family, a stepdaughter, a granddaughter and this girl was friends with his children? That would mean that he chose his victims from within his immmediate friends and family circle which makes his religious connections less relevent.

    Given the fact that Jehovah's witnesses policies mean parents are told to look after their children at all times within meetings, assemblies, social gatherings etc and the two elder rule. It's policies are more stringent than most religious groups I know who still allow single clergy to visit rank and file members alone.

    I particularily doubt the accusation that the elders knew about and condoned his abuse of a minor over a two year period that would be completely against major Witness teachings and for me seems completely unfounded.

    There are many flaws.

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    Jehovah's Witnesses

    2401 Smith Road, Brentwood, CA (925) 634-5654 ()

    I made some calls. I guess if you want to ask the molester, or his elders opinion, here you go. Google earth has a photo. - P.S. -Take a look at "Discovery Bay" down the road (google photos). THAT congregation shares this hall, check out the homes and boats!! Wowzer.
  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    Yeah, it's nice out there. But the recession hit that area pretty hard. Property values almost cut in half and a lot of forclosures.

    Peace

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    Bobjohnrob,

    First, thanks for participating in what I believe to be a civil, rational discussion of these sensitive issues. All too often, when individuals come to the board to present a more pro-JW point of view, the mud tends to fly from both sides very quickly. So, I really appreciate your input.

    A couple of points:

    1 - I'm not an attorney so I can't really comment on whether there were appealable errors. When I first saw this story, my first thought was that they were clearly going to appeal. I think the punitive damages portion is going to be reviewed but the 3 to 1 ratio between the compensatory and punitive award seems in line with the limits the Surpreme Court has established. In cases where a huge award is granted, many times the corporations and plaintiffs will settle prior to appeal for an amount much less than the award. However, I don't see that happening because the WTS realizes that if this case stands, they will need to brace themselves for many more lawsuits. Also, it seems like this plaintiff doesn't appear inclined to settle. I believe they will take this one ultimately to at least the CA Supreme Court and perhaps to the US Supreme Court if they can make a constitutional argument.

    2 - I think both sides viewed this as a landmark case because it's the largest verdict of its kind. If this verdict stands (which it may not, who knows), I do believe that the theory will be used in other cases against other institutions (religious and otherwise). It will be interesting to see if other religions file "friend of the court" briefs in support of the WTS. My guess is they will because they know that if this case stands, they'll be next in line.

    3 - According to the San Francisco Chronicle report http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/06/15/BAUQ1P2PH2.DTL Kendrick was a MS at one point and was removed due to the incident involving his stepdaughter which the elders handled but was never reported to the police. While a MS is the lowest level of oversight a person can have, it does create a level of trust with some members of the congregation. It doesn't with me because I was a MS then an elder and I know firsthand that they are no better or worse than anyone else. I believe the argument was that if the congregation had been warned when Kendrick was removed in 1993 of the reason why he was removed, then the abuse committed against Conti would not have occurred because her parents would have never allowed her near this person.

    4 - I don't believe the sex registery was place in 1994 because the Megan's Law legislation wasn't passed until 1996. But, he was convicted in 1994 for the abuse against his stepdaughter. While you mention it was a misdemeanor sexual battery, that still will put you on the sex offender registration list. I'm not sure it's fair to say the police viewed him as no danger, he was convicted of a crime. That's still serious.

    5 - The fact that most predators groom their victims and that it's usually from a close circle is a potential argument as to why he could be trusted in field service with an responsible person going with him. But, religious connections are often used to gain trust with the potential victim just like charity connections (Boy Scouts and Sandusky for 2 examples). It's not a JW specific issue, it's just that within a religious congregation, there's a level of trust that is higher than it is within the general population. Trust is what these guys use to gain access.

    6 - I would say that among born-in's (both my wife and I fit that), we watch our kids like hawks. Both of us have friends that have been abused by either JWs or non-JW family members and therefore trust very few people. But, my mother-in-law put my wife in several dangerous situations because she was a convert who thought that once you became a JW, you were in a spiritual paradise in which no one would do anything bad. Fortunately, my wife was never abused but came close a few times. I know that I often went in service with elders/ms/other publishers without my parents being around and for the most part, everyone trusted each other. It's a tough situation because your told that everyone is your brother and sister. But parents do need to exercise caution. As for the clergy thing, many churches have only one pastor and aren't necessarily set up the way JWs are so it's not likely they could grab a partner. I'm not familar with other religions policy on being alone with parishioners so can't really comment on how they handle that situation.

    7 - I agree with you on your statement that the elders knew about Condi's abuse and condoned it. It seems unlikely that they would have done nothing since they had already removed Kendrick for sexual misconduct with his stepdaugher. I'm sure some may be saying that but I didn't get the sense from articles and documents that I've read so far that the individual elders were aware of the abuse. It's just that they knew Kendrick offended before and didn't tell parents about the potential for abuse. I would say that if those elders did know about it then they should be charged as accessories to the abuse. I don't believe that most JWs or most people in general would condone abuse.

    Sorry for the length!

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    Why a CIVIL case and not a CRIMINAL case ...

    My two cents ...

    This case was about getting Watch Tower to change policies for better child protection.

    The information I posted about Statute of Limitations in CA ...

    Civil Lawsuits for Sexual Abuse

    In California, the filing of a civil claim of sexual abuse must be made within 8 years of the age of majority (meaning before your 26th birthday).

    Criminal Prosecutions for Sexual Abuse

    Prosecution for "normal" sexual assault has a statute of limitations of six years.

    Of course if you look more at the details for a criminal case, there are other exceptions, but it still looks like the circumstances would probably make a ciminal case difficult to get around the statute of limitations ... the civil case was certainly within the limitations as it was filed before the victims 26th birthday.

  • Bobjohnrob
    Bobjohnrob

    Thank you for your reply DB.

    In America I do know a misdemeanor is considered a crime of low seriousness usually ending in the perpetrator being fined so I do not consider this sufficient reason to throw a 28 million dollar slap on the wrist of Jehovah's witnesses. Your words acknowledge that there must have been police involvement for him to get this misdemeanor regarding his step-daughter in 1994. Does that make the Police culpable too if they didn't warn his extended family and neighbours?

    There has been a Sexual offenders registry for 50 years in California but it was Megan's law 1996 that made those records public. This does beg the question of why Jehovah's witnesses where held responsible for not publically revealing this man's criminal record when even the government at that time didn't? They would have been breaking current government law to reveal his criminal history.

    If he was a convicted pedophile with a string of sexual offences by 1994 to his name and they kept that hidden I would understand a 28 million dollar lawsuit but a man with only 1 misdemeanor at that point (of which police were fully aware and therefore there had to be some level of public knowledge) and no other sexual offence history, this does seem a disproportionate reaction to the facts of the case.

    I also think if there should be full open public disclosure of a pedophiles sexual history in his work places, religious groups etc then it is the responsibility of the governments to put this law in place. Atm Criminal records are not to be publically announced and this does hamper disclosure to those that could be potential victims.

    I do not think there is any real benefit to this case but to make anyone on the sex offenders list unemployable and pariah to joining groups or organisations. Who would allow any one with even one minor sexual offence to be part of their group if they can be held responsible for his criminal activities by simply being aware of his criminal record!

  • Miles3
    Miles3

    Bobjohnrob, i do think even minor child sexual abuse offenders should not be able to enter an association or an organisation that cares for children, nor should they be allowed to work with or near children.

    I think that's part of the issue here, though I haven't read all the court documents. But that issue was also raised in previous pedophile cases involving the Watchctower. The fact that pedophiles (minor or not) are required by policy to engage in door-to-door ministry is an issue, and should certainly not be allowed unless he was supervised at all times by an elder. Also, since preaching is organised by the congregation and by the Society, and local elders are the one overseeing it (that's how the Organised book shows it), both have a responsibility in ensuring children engaging in that organised activity do not get into contact with pedophiles. Think about it like a church organised activity, whether Sunday school, or some church-organised sport or game.

    The fact is, the way preaching is organised, there is no way to prevent a pedophile access to children unless you warn each and every member about it. While elders are overseeing it, they are far from attending all service groups - yet the Legal Department forbids them to even give instructions to the ministerial servant or group conductor about not sending the pedophile with kids, or in a group with kids. Worse, in the past elders that were part of a pedophile's JC have sent the pedophile with a single mom and her kids (if you know how it goes, there's always the single sister with kids nobody wants to preach with, and the akward pedophile is the default choice...), or with a kid alone. The congregation and the Society bear responsability, because the Society consider warning the pedophile about paying attention with kids suffisant. It is not, and it's for that policy, which is still in effect, that the Watchtower is being fined with punitive damages. There can be no real protection for kids until the Society repels that policy, and the jury seems to have understood that. I do not believe Conti's advocate has misrepresented the Society's policy, because it really reflects the reality of the situation. Not just the reality in the 90s - sadly, the problem remains the same in 2012, and you know that each years in the US alone it's at least dozens of kids being raped that could have been avoided. Changing that will protect more kids thant attacking one pedophile.

    I also do believe that on a human level the elders not warning the parents, even if some like you would consider his previous act a minor offense (it's never minor when it involves kids), it horrendous and inhumane. The Society's policy, by forbiding the elders to do so, is even more at fault.

    As for the pedophile, and as much as we'd all like hime behind bars, at least the congregation is now aware not to let any kids near him, and his sex offender status is a matter of public record. If he is convicted in a criminal court, that would be good news, but he could be convicted and still get out of it with few consequences (a few years in prison at most). i don't think I'm qualified to judge if the government is too lenient - I believe it is, but on the other hand psychiatrists have a different opinion, and they know those cases better. In a perfect world, we'd be able to cut all those people from children access, contributing to society, while not filling the already overcrowded US prison system.

  • mamalove
    mamalove

    I think people are losing the point. The leadership in some cases has not notifed people of a risk. For pete's sake, they let each other in the car group know if they made a BM that day or are having cramps, you would think something kind of significant like having a pedo in their midst would trigger some kind of warning. They are absolutely backwards sexually in other ways, why not be overboard about this, instead be the opposite. My feelings are that JW's want to sweep stuff under the rug, and hope that people can be healed from some kind of cravings for children. They are not professionals. Most pedos are not cureable.

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