How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t 70 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  botchtowersociety

  Yes to all three.

  Regarding hell, if I believe in immortality of the soul and freedom of choice, then I almost have to believe in a final place/state for those who choose to not spend eternity in union with God. Since God in my view is the source of goodness and love, and the very embodiment of these things, and since I believe the soul was created to have the greatest and best and will not find true satisfaction in anything less, to spend eternity without these things is hell. Yet some will prefer to spend eternity this way. They will choose it freely with full knowledge of their choice. It will not be a punishment from God, because God wants to share Himself with all people. It is the soul's choice. This is hell, which has been metaphorically represented in many ways throughout history, including the fire and brimstone imagery we commonly associate with Hell.
• 

  Sulla

  designs, it isn't nice to pick on Bowman and Hoffstetter. They have a an agenda, so it isn't the same thing. Lotta Evangelicals are like that.
• 

  Dogpatch

  good thoughts sab...

  Can I use this Leolaia? Excellent points. The Jews also did not really fear satan, and they believed in familiar spirits as well. A far cry from the WT.

  Few scholars write on hell anymore.

  Randy
• 

  binadub

  Leolaia:

  You are correct of course that there is controversy about whether or not Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) was a burning dump for rubbish, as there is controversy in essentially everything in history and science.
  While there is tradition in early Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism to suggest this scenario for the Valley of Hinnom, there are other historians who say there is no concrete historical evidence this was true, as you say.
  
  As I understand it, it seems generally accepted that the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was a literal place determined to be at the base of Mount Zion. Biblically, the references go back to Joshua chapters 15-18. Some believe that Isaiah was referring to the valley of Hinnom (Tophet) at verse 30:33 when he referred to the "burning place."
  
  In any case, it is believed by many that in the ancient Jewish religion, Gehenna became a metonym (not literal) tosymbolizetheir belief in punishment after death. And this tradition evidently carried some influence over into early Christianity. Notably, there is no reference to Gehenna at all in the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Pseudepigrapha, or Philo. To my thinking this is further indication that the Bible does not teach a literal "hell" as everlasting torture of immortal souls.
  
  According to Wikipedia (not the Watchtower) on "Gehenna", older Christian commentaries reportedly mention the tradition of Roman fires kept burning in the Valley as it became a refuse dump for Jerusalem and a place of throwing the bodies of criminals and carcasses of dead animals. However, this cannot be verified by any writing of Josephus, which is interesting. That does not mean it was not a literal place, it just means Josephus cannot be used as a secular historical reference, and without viable historical or archeological verification, it can only be reported as tradition. Actual historical reference of that "burning dump" concept of Hinnom only goes back to about the 1200 century AD.
  
  As you know, Jesus used the word Gehenna (11 times) to describe the alternative to life in his Kingdom (Mk.9:43-48)--it being a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matt.10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mk.9:43). Since I believe Jesus was speaking in parable, and that Gehenna was a literal place (explicit evidence aside), it suggests implicitly--to my reasoning--that there must be some truth to a burning valley as it was described in the "tradition" of Gehenna in his day.

  It is also reported that Jewish tradition said that "Hinnom" had a gate (e.g., a gate to "Hell"). Perhaps that is what Jesus was referring to when he said metaphorically that he would build his church on that rock and the "gates of hell" would not prevail.

  Regardless of whether there was an actual burning dump called Gehenna outside of Jerusalem, I see no evidence that Jesus' words or any other scripture about Gehenna or Hades or Sheol in the OT or NT, refers to everlasting torture of immortal souls.

  I'll conclude with this quote from the Emphatic Diaglott:

  GEHENNA: The Greek word translataed hell in the common version, occurs 12 times. It is the Grecian mode of spelling the Hebrew words which are translated, "The valley of Hinnom." This valley was also called Tophet, a detestation, an abomination. Into this place were cast all kinds of filth, with the carcasses of beasts, and the unburied bodies of criminals who had been executed. Continual fires were kept to consume these. Sennacherib's army of 185,000 men were slain here in one night. Here children were also burnt to death in sacrifice to Moloch. Gehenna, then, as occurring in the New Testament, symbolizes death and utter destruaction, but in no place signifies a place of eternal torment.

  I agree.

  Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Interesting information.

  ~Binadub
• 

  Dogpatch

  the Emphatic Diaglott was written by a Christadelphian, duh.

  I have walked through the valley of hinnom when I stayed in Jerusalem years ago... right outside my hotel room. I spent 10 day going through temple excavations, and visiting old synagogues with astrological signs embeded in the tiles.

  Don't quote the WT on this stuff, or try to make it fit your imagination. Get outside of yourslf and your druthers and study real history. The WT knows nothing.

  Randy
• 

  designs

  Sulla- picking on Bowman and Hoffstetter was fun I found it fascinating that they wouldn't allow themselves to even articulate the Jewish view of monotheism, I mean geeez its just acedemics.
• 

  Mall Cop

  Recommened reading. The BIBLE UNEARTHED, Archaeology's new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its sacred texts. By Isreal Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

  Look it up on line . I don't want to make any personel comments on it yet. Has anyone here read it? Iwill say that it has to do with our topics discussed here.

  Blueblades/MallCop
• 

  goodbye

  Atheist. No hell here.
• 

  binadub

  Randy:
  
  1) Benjamin Wilson (scholar who translated the Emphatic Diaglott) was never associated with the Christadelphians.
  2) Quoting the Emphatic Diaglott is not quoting the Watchtower. It's the other way around.
  3) I've toured Israel twice, including the usual walk through the Hinnom valley as well.

  Benjamin Wilson was raised a Baptist, his family converted to the Campbellites (parent religion of the various Churches of Christ sects).
  
  Dr. John Thomas founded the Christadelphian faith,after he had been associated with Benjamin Wilson for a while, but they had previously split over doctrinal issues (approx 1864). Benjamin Wilson ultimately became associated with what is now the Church of God Abrahamic Faith. He is regarded as a scholar, and his beliefs that were contrary to the Dawn Bible Students are occasionally reflected in the Diaglott's side column.
  
  All of that aside, fwiw, I don't believe Wilson's Diaglott just because he said thus and so. On the topic of hell, I appreciate that it brought attention to facts that one could research further on their own. His interlinary's concordance was simply a launching point. I quoted that definition here because it was so concise on the topic. There is plenty of looong articles disputing the doctrine of hell by a Google search, but they get into a lot of detail for quoting on a discussion forum.
  
  Just because the JWs picked up on Wilson's doctrine (or non-doctrine) doesn't make it hogwash. I wouldn't discount some of your good articles just because you were once a JW Bethelite and then a 4-Square. Some Catholics are excellent Biblical scholars (e.g., Bargil Pixner) independent of their religion. Scholarship is examining the information on its own merits, independent of who agrees with it or what their religion is.

  Bottom line: Imo, you can't judge a scholar (or scientist) by their religion.

  ~Binadub
• 

  Dogpatch

  Thanks for the clarification Binadub.

  I wouldn't consider it "hogwash," just tainted with unorthodox leanings.

  The main point is, it is not mainstream nor recognized by most scholars as representing the early church's faith. Sects like the JWs use it like they use Johannes Greber's Bible. :-))

  Wikipedia says,

  In 1952 the copyright to the Diaglott expired and it fell into the public domain. The Watch Tower Society's sold the Diaglott inexpensively (offering it free of charge from 1990), [ 4 ] making it non-viable for others to print until the depletion of that inventory. [ 5 ] Others such as Wilson's home church, Church of the Blessed Hope, had considered reprinting their own edition; in 2003 the Miami church of the group, with support from Christadelphians in the United Kingdom and the United States published their own edition, with a new preface. [ 6 ]

  The public domain status of The Emphatic Diaglott has made it a popular online translation. [ 7 ]

  ____________________

  But there is more evidence than that. Of the Church of the Blessed Hope, Wikipedia says,

  Background

  The Church of the Blessed Hope or Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith (CGAF)¹ has common roots with the Christadelphians and the Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith). Benjamin Wilson, founder of the Abrahamic Faith, and John Thomas, founder of the Christadelphians, were both British emigrants who had been associated with the Campbellite movement in Illinois, but were among those who separated because of the objection to the doctrines of the immortality of the soul and the Trinity. Thomas and Wilson first corresponded by letter from 1846-1856 then met and were in active fellowship from 1856-1862. However in 1863 a disagreement between the two men concerning the judgment seat and the resurrection caused the groups associated with them, to separate and the rift was confirmed when the two groups registered (for the purposes of conscientious objection in the American Civil War) with different names in 1865. [ 1 ]

  Benjamin Wilson spent his early life in Halifax, England. Benjamin, with his brothers, Joseph, John, and James, questioned the teachings of their local Baptist Church and "became convinced that the promises to Abraham were central to salvation". Benjamin and James moved their families to Geneva, Illinois in 1844. Brothers John and Joseph came to Geneva around 1849. Together they started a church in Geneva. Because of adopting a stance against military service, there was a need to adopt an "official" name during the Civil War. The name "Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith", suggested by Benjamin Wilson, was chosen. The work of the Wilsons led to a number of congregations from Ohio to California (where Benjamin later moved), but no central organization.

  The Church of the Blessed Hope began as a local congregation in Cleveland, Ohio. It was organized on October 4, 1863. Mark Allen, a missionary of the Church of God Abrahamic Faith movement from Woburn, Massachusetts, led fourteen Ohioans in founding this body. Congregations were soon afterward established in Salem and Unionville, and these congregations incorporated themselves as the Church of the Blessed Hope in 1888. All these congregations still exist, though the Cleveland body has moved to Chesterland. The leader of the Cleveland congregation from 1922–1927 was a Christadelphian.

  The Church of the Blessed Hope and the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith were different in name, but part of the same movement. By the early 20th century, the movement had grown to over 200 congregations in about a dozen states. They were only a loose fellowship of churches. Some ties were maintained by state conferences and a periodical, The Restitution.

  When Benjamin Wilson retired in 1869 he left his The Gospel Banner to be merged with his nephew Thomas Wilson's Herald of the Coming Kingdom and Bible Instructor, which was renamed in The Restitution in 1871 and published by Thomas Wilson and W.D. St.Clair in Chicago. In 1911 the five man Ministerial Association objected to the next editor of The Restitution, A. R. Underwood of Plymouth Indiana, leading to a severing of fellowship of the churches.

  The majority followed those opposed to Underwood, led by L. E. Connor, they added two doctrines to their statement of faith - universal resurrection and open communion. Later, they also added the belief in a personal devil. The majority regrouped in 1921 and organized the Church of God (General Conference)(CoGGC) publishing a new magazine The Restitution Herald, published in Oregon, Illinois.

  Five congregations (3 in Ohio and 1 each in Kentucky and Indiana) rejected these doctrinal additions and stood for the old Geneva Statement of Faith, now publishing The Restitution from Cleveland, Ohio. The minority congregations maintained ties, and in 1966 four of the then six churches adopted a uniform doctrinal statement. In 1976 these six churches (informally known as CGAF) began to gather for an annual gathering, which is now held each year in August at various colleges in Ohio. [ 2 ]

  Faith and Practice

  The Church of the Blessed Hope (CGAF) rejects the doctrine of the Trinity; recognizes the Bible as God's revealed word; teaches that salvation is obtained through hearing, believing, confessing, and obeying the gospel; and expects the premillennial return and reign of Jesus, in which the righteous and the unjust will be raised, but that those who have not heard the gospel will not be raised from the dead. Valid baptism is performed through the immersion of believers in water. Christ's command to partake the bread and the cup (communion) is observed weekly.

  They reject the doctrines which the larger CoGGC grouping accepted in 1921, namely a literal devil, universal resurrection, and open communion. Additionally CGAF members do not serve in war as combatants, though some congregations permit members to serve in humanitarian positions. [ 3 ]

  ____________________________

  Soooo.....

  Sounds pretty fishy to me, unless you choose to side with the denial of the Trinity, immortal soul, the devil, salvation by grace alone, and so on. I find it hard to believe that you separated him out from what he was involved in, and his already preconceived orthodox ideas. He was obviously NOT a Baptist in belief, and his adventures sound just like those of C.T. Russell.

  As for not judging a "scholar" by their beliefs, that's stretching it a bit to apply that to any but a few "scholars." But I agree in that German theologians are much better than American ones on that, for instance. And as far as the Catholic church, I agree with you they have a much better handle on much of theology AND history than any American evangelical churches I know of. (Minus the pope... perhaps Greek Orthodoxy is more true to history). But they were human, too. We will never know what was lost in antiquity, and we have quite a large collection of what was ADDED under false authority.

  By the way, none of this has any bearings on my own beliefs. :-))

  http://www.freeminds.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2657:words-from-a-former-hippie&catid=8:randys-blog&Itemid=571

  I didn't accept some of Foursquare's stuff, and I don't believe in the WT teachings. Nor am I a Catholic. I don't let my personal beliefs get in the way of good historical investigation, and Wilson apparently did. What makes you thinhk I'm an evangelical? I never believed in hell, two classes of Christians, immortality of the soul, etc. or the Genesis account of early history or the creation account. And the Trinity doesn't violate the teachings of the main body of Christians of the first two to three centuries. It's simply MAN's efforts to put the pieces of the Bible together. But it is still a man-made doctrine, as all of them are.

  thanks bro, I did learn something about Wilson. :-))

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Blessed_Hope

  Randy

  P.S. G.K. Chesterton is one of my favorite writers, a Catholic.

  also Catholicism and Fundamentalism, which opened my eyes greatly. Changed my tune on many historical events.

  "Orthodoxy" is only important to me as to whether it represents what was historically considered mainstream Christianity. I study it's sects once in awhile, but they are called "sects" for a reason. Most scholars disagree with them, religious or not. Many of the German theologians aren't even what Americans would consider Christian. It has no religious meaning to me at all. Purely secular reading as far as I'm concerned. Certainly not "tainted" with my theology, as I have none.

  peace! And you are right:

  Scholarship is examining the information on its own merits, independent of who agrees with it or what their religion is.

  That's why in most of my tomes on doctrine (which were all written in the early 80s) are written more from a third person perspective. The tome on HELL on my site was written to win a bet against a DF's anointed guy who challlenged me on the history of hell, Carlin Venus in Canoga Park area.

  Then BOTH authors gave me permission to use the tome, which is a comparison of the two views of hell as discussed by Robert Morey and Edward Fudge, quite some time AFTER I wrote it, because they BOTH liked it. Fudge gave me permission on the condition that I send him two more of it in book form. Pretty funny! :-))

  It is in book form at:

  http://www.freeminds-store.com/books/hell-a-critique-of-two-different-views-traditionalism-vs-conditionalism.html