How can one be a witness of events unseen and unheard?

by kepler 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kepler
    kepler

    Back in the 13th century, the rumors coming to western Europe of things happening in central Asia could have been much worse. Events then were about as apocalyptic as anything we have experienced in our own day. Much of the world was coming under new management, that of the descendants of Genghis Khan. His armies and those of his successors eradicated cities and armies that resisted from China to Hungary and Poland and the middle eastern heart of the Islamic world. His descendant Mongke ruling from remote Karakorum in Mongolia, anticipated ruling the world from Pacific to the Atlantic and communicated with the outside world accordingly.

    What follows is a simplification, but it will set the table for the presentation of an argument. If anyone is curious about more detail about this era, I suggest "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World", by Jack Weatherford, a best seller of several years back.

    Anyway, the Mongols themselves had their own religious beliefs and traditions and had assimilated some others from their conquests. But what ensued during the 1250s was a court-sponsored debate among the great faiths of the era. By invitation mullahs, monks (Christian and Buddhist) and other missionaries travelled to Karakorum via the Silk Route, in some cases en route for a year. We have some record of the discourse. William of Rubruck a Franciscan monk was in the contingent arguing for western Europe's Roman Catholicism. Actually many of the Mongols had married wives from conquered regions where Syrian or Eastern Orthodox christianity held sway; and as a result believers of this variation of Christianity already was widespread in the court. But ultimately the Khans either turned to Islam or Buddhism. In part because the Christian sects squabbled to no advantage, were not as learned as their Muslim counterparts and ruling China just had a way of influencing them.

    Now, let us imagine a new debate in a new court if somewhat imaginary. I am not one of the Khans, but I will play the part as someone who is not entirely versed in JW beliefs and their foundations. Easy enough to do, because it is true. Ready?

    From from lengthy reading, discussion and debate elsewhere I have learned that JW or the WTBTS believe that

    1. Christ returned to reign on Earth in 1914.

    2. Satan the devil was thrown out of heaven at about the same time.

    3. Under God's auspices a lengthy search of Earth's believers was conducted and circa 1918 or 1919, it was settled that an organization ( WTBTS) was determined to be God's Theocratic Government on Earth.

    4. All of this process was invisible.

    5. All of this process was unheard.

    Now questions arise.

    1. Did I state items 1 through 5 correctly?

    2. Aside from C. T. Russell concluding that WWI must have been indicator of 1 and 2, how do we know?

    3. Since C. T. Russell was no longer around in 1918 or 1919, what was the evidence of the subsequent search?

    4. Did heaven wait for Joseph Rutherford to complete his WTBTS corporate takeover?

    5. Was the decision announced by Mr. Rutherford?

    6. If this was invisible how was this event perceived? ( I don't mean pointing to several Bible verses)

    7. Did Rutherford or Russell have any other witnesses?

    8. How do you witness an invisible event?

    9. How do you corroborate your observations with others unless they also saw exactly nothing?

    10. How come this organization was subsequently so unsuccessful in predicting much of anything else beside this invisible event?

    11. If the event is invisible as claimed, why should I not be just as open to other claims of invisible events entirely unrelated?

    12. In this case, why should I not conclude that we are dealing with an oxymoronic expression?

    A little later, I'll come back with an account of other events produced by another organization that were more visible and involved three (3) children as simultaneous witnesses ( time and a half enough to provide sufficient testimony in other clerical matters). We can then examine how it compares.

    I'll get back a little later to tell about some similar miraculous events that were going on during this era ( post 1914)

  • kepler
    kepler

    Yesterday when I submitted the above post, I should have looked at it more carefully. Maybe it was an oncoming headache. I feel better now and maybe some of the text revisions below will be of some help.

    Back in the 13th century, the rumors coming to western Europe of things happening in central Asia could not have been much worse. Events then were about as apocalyptic as anything we have experienced in our own day. Much of the world was coming under new management, that of the descendants of Genghis Khan. His armies and those of his successors eradicated cities and armies that resisted their advance: from China to Hungary and Poland; heading south in Asia, the middle eastern heart of the Islamic world. His descendant Mongke ruling from remote Karakorum in Mongolia, anticipated ruling the world from Pacific to the Atlantic and communicated with the outside world accordingly.

    What follows is a simplification, but it will set the table for the presentation of an argument. If anyone is curious about more detail about this era, I suggest "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World", by Jack Weatherford, a best seller of several years back.

    Anyway, the Mongols themselves had their own religious beliefs and traditions and had assimilated some others from their conquests. But what ensued during the 1250s was a court-sponsored debate among the great faiths of the era. By invitation mullahs, monks (Christian and Buddhist) and other missionaries travelled to Karakorum via the Silk Route, in some cases in transit for over a year. We have some record of the discourse. William of Rubruck a Franciscan monk was in the contingent arguing for western Europe's Roman Catholicism and Weatherford draws some from his accounts.

    Actually many of the Mongols had married wives from conquered regions where Syrian or Eastern Orthodox christianity held sway; and as a result believers of this variation of Christianity already was widespread within the Mongol court as well as among the horse-borne cavalries travelling all over Eurasia. But ultimately the Khans either turned to Islam or Buddhism. In part because the Christian sects squabbled to no advantage in the court debates, were not as learned as their Muslim counterparts and in the case of ruling over China, the culture just had a way of influencing them.

    Now, let us imagine a new debate in a new court if somewhat imaginary. I am not one of the Khans, but I will play the part as someone who is not entirely versed in JW beliefs and their foundations. Easy enough to do, because it is true. Ready?

    From lengthy reading, discussion and debate elsewhere I have learned that JW or the WTBTS believe that

    1. Christ returned to reign on Earth in 1914.

    2. Satan the devil was thrown out of heaven at about the same time.

    3. Under God's auspices a lengthy search of Earth's believers was conducted and circa 1918 or 1919, it was settled that an organization (WTBTS) was suited over all other potential candidates to be God's Theocratic Government on Earth.

    4. All of this process was invisible.

    5. All of this process was unheard.

    Now questions arise.

    1. Did I state items 1 through 5 correctly?

    2. Aside from C. T. Russell concluding that WWI must have been indicator of 1 and 2, how do we know?

    3. Since C. T. Russell was no longer around in 1918 or 1919, what was the evidence of the subsequent search?

    4. Did heaven wait for Joseph Rutherford to complete his WTBTS corporate takeover?

    5. Was the decision announced by Mr. Rutherford?

    6. If this was invisible how was this event perceived? ( I don't mean pointing to several Bible verses, but perceived as an event such as one wakes up one day and the matter has yet to be resolved – and then it is because of a perceived event)

    7. Did Rutherford or Russell have any other witnesses?

    8. How do you witness an invisible event?

    9. How do you corroborate your observations with others - unless they also saw exactly nothing?

    10. How come this organization was subsequently so unsuccessful in predicting much of anything else beside this invisible event?

    11. If the event is invisible as claimed, why should I not be just as open to other claims of invisible events entirely unrelated?

    12. In this case, why should I not conclude that we are dealing with an oxymoronic expression?

    A little later, I would like to provide an account of other events in the same era (1914-1919) produced by another organization; these were more visible and involved three (3) children as simultaneous witnesses ( time and a half enough to provide sufficient testimony in other clerical matters). I myself am not convinced of the facts and veracity of the alternative story, but I have to admit that that I sense more evidence in support of this apocalyptic scenario than the one that I so far understand to be that of the WTBTS.

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    Easy to do, it is called a psychotic delusion.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    well i just had to look up the other event, kepler, and found that there were many eyewitnesses, if you are talking aout the Lady of Fatima. Most supernatural phenomenon have involved something verifiable by the senses and then catatrophic events occurring in the milieu of world at the time have been taken as corroboration and as suggestive of great change ahead. But jehovahs witnessess have an event they did not see or hear to witness about. they must on all counts rely on the authority of their leaders to tell them what is happening invisibly rather than engaging their own hearts and thinking ability. this is trap - to rely on authority to tell you what and how to thing, that is.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Good posts Mr Kepler sir ! For an active JW to see it written down as you have, especially the list of invisible events, it must be something that rattles their cage,they must see how ridiculous it all is.

    Or at least you would think so, but I have presented the same questions and information to a number of active JW's to no effect, how they "rationalise" it I know not.

    Thanks again, some "honest hearted" (to use a WT phrase) Lurkers may well benefit, well done.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    6. If this was invisible how was this event perceived? ( I don't mean pointing to several Bible verses, but perceived as an event such as one wakes up one day and the matter has yet to be resolved – and then it is because of a perceived event)

    I think this was by the evidence of the spiritual paradise that resulted from the birth of the kingdom.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    They claim to be witnesses of Jehovah, based on Isaiah 43. Have any of them seen or heard Jehovah? Has any religious person for the last 2,000 years (or ever) seen or heard God?

    That is analogous to why JW's believe those 5 things you list are true. They believe something invisible and not directly provable (Jesus commencing his reign in heaven in 1914, etc) is evidenced by external proofs. Jesus said wars, famines, earthquakes, etc would mark his presence (due to their peculiar and erroneous teachings on the meaning of 'parousia'). The JW's believe those signs began in 1914 with WW1, then the Spanish flu, etc. Coupled with the fact that C T Russell actually had 1914 marked down in his 'Bible chronology' makes it just too uncanny and coincidental for JW's to resist as proof that those 5 things you listed are true and that they alone bear witness to their truth.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Thanks, all of you for your comments.

    Sometimes, posting these propositions, have to wonder if I am coming in from too far out in left field, just coming up with things that are irrelevant to the experience of years of KH and knocking on doors. I never know. But at the same time, the experience of being on the other side of the counter and having this tear up my home, it's left a deep impression on me too. So I keep plodding on...

    Soft & Gentle,

    Yes, you were right. I was thinking of Fatima. For anyone interested, the Wikipedia provides a detailed account and links at

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

    Rather than to claim that this is matter of dogma in anybody's faith, I would just like to highlight some points for comparison.

    1. There were three witnesses,

    2.There were repeated incidents, crowds gathered to observe events.

    3. The site provides newspaper records of the day of one of the observed events.

    4. A message was written and given to religious authorities.

    5. Predictions about specific history were given...

    From that point, in my youth circa 1960, I was aware that the message was instructions to pray for peace and the conversion of Russia, lest there would be another terrible war. My teachers in parochial school were ambivalent about whether this was all true or not, but did not suggest that the idea be ignored. Dutifully, like others, I participated in such prayers. We need not examine all the details, but that was the story in essence. In all appearances, it seemed like an intercession into the natural course of events- if you believed what perceived evidence there was. And as I am maintaining above, there is some, whether credible or not. Furthermore, from all appearances, considering that many in the 50s, 60s and even into the 1980s feared that nuclear war would result from US and Soviet confrontation over something, it would appear that this form of apocalyptic thinking had a happier ending for most of mankind than the "glad tidings" I have heard about once I opened my door...

    In addition, there are other similar incidents in history. A staggering example is the Lady of Guadalupe in the 1530s. Perhaps it changed Mexico from whatever it was before. Generally, historians say that it this is a legend that accrued over decades or even a century. Maybe so. But I have read Bernal Diaz's account of the "Discovery and Conquest of Mexico". As a lieutenant of Cortez in the 1517-21 campaign and a settler of Guatatemala, he is a contemporary of the event and makes mention of it in his history toward the end. Why he did not elaborate on what the "miracle" was? Perhaps he thought all his readers already knew and acknowledged it. Whether a natural explanation existed or not, the absence of his detailed account is our loss all the same.

    But it still raises the question: Why should the miraculous unwitnessed events events of 1914 and 1919 be more credible than these?

    ---------------

    YY,

    You raise the point that the Jehovah's Witness is a nomenclature derived from Isaiah 43. No doubt about that. But I still think that the point about witness to unperceived events is worth raising. If one is introduced as speaking in behalf of Jehovah with a name like that, then one is lead to belief that the individual is providing important testimony. The people that came to my house were not allowed to deviate in any significant matter from a script associated with publications. And when I examined the publications they were presenting as "truth", there were a number of downright lies that I have mentioned earlier.

    And also, behind it all, were these remarkable claims about Satan falling to Earth, a property he supposedly already owned, as well as Christ arriving in some sort of incremental process (1878, 1914, etc.) - but in both cases invisibly. Why should it make any sense that this particular war that started several months before the October determination should be the kickoff of anything other than what it was, a war? And then why should anyone believe that there was a 5-year invisible administrative process in heaven to determine that Rutherford and Co. was the most qualified candidate for Theocrat? I've read the guy. ... What can I say?

    To a large degree, Rutherford would claim that events in his life were foretold in Revelations, and then subsequentlyeverybody forgets the matter, perhaps eventually recycling the same passages for other purposes.

    I don't know if I should discount this, but so far no one has recounted how either Russell or Rutherford heard one word at the Brooklyn HQ from the Most High about what was going on "up there". There is no certificate. No tablets. Nothing that equates to events at Mount Sinai. Or even across the ocean in Portugal.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    As I mentioned, they believe the 'composite sign' starting with WW1 proves tangibly that Jesus has been 'invisibly present' since 1914. They believe Russell's prediction that 1914 was a marked year in Bible chronology was fulfilled by the outbreak of WW1 and that this remarkable coincidence therefore proved that Russell and the Bible Students were uniquely favoured by God and Christ. The rest follows from that and is all eisegesis and circular reasoning.

    Every Christian alive today believes on the basis of hearsay, ie, on the basis of ancient written accounts. All of the gospels are technically hearsay. No one can claim to be a witness of anything if it is not personally and directly experienced or witnessed.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Here is how I look at it.

    JEHOVAH'S WITNESS is a counterfeit-reality nomenclature.

    The person who brands themselves with that term eventually abandons their sentry post at reality's gate and allows the monster of deceit to pass without challenge.

    Direct contact with events (seeing, hearing, smelling,tasting, feeling) create an impression which our brain interprets.

    Already there is a dichotomy: actual event vs interpretation.

    Each individual assigns significance according to their own expectations and knowledge.

    All of this is FIRST CONTACT with events.

    At a META-level (one step removed) the witness to an event communicates the experience--not the EVENT, mind you--but the interpreted experience.

    Key to this communication is LANGUAGE.

    Language may be objective (just reporting facts) or subjective (emotional and persuasive).

    At a third level and fourth, etc. the original communication about the Event is "handled" and passed along. It is at this stage CHANGE (intentional or unintentional) corrupts any facts.

    Anything we do not DIRECTLY experience ourselves is accepted or rejected through some process of testing or acceptance. Trust or Doubt occurs

    individually. It is subjective and tempered by bias, expectation, familiarity and.....importantly: DESIRE.

    Having said all the above. Our responsibility to ourself begins and ends with total commitment to reality. Reality alone.

    If we are not willing to be wrong when the thing we desire most is proved bogus, then, our rational mind deteriorates into a Loyalty Machine.

    Solidarity to a fiction is not Virtue as much as it is counterfeit reality passed along as legal tender.

    The difference between a Lie and a Pious Fraud is the intention of the mind passing it off to others, but, the result is the same.

    JEHOVAH'S WITNESS is a counterfeit-reality nomenclature.

    The person who brands themselves with that term eventually abandons their sentry post at reality's gate and allows the monster of deceit to pass without challenge.

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