Who get baptized in holy spirit, and when?

by The Searcher 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  The Searcher

  My wife asked me a very simple, but profound question; "When does someone who claims to be anointed, get baptized in holy spirit?".

  I'd never thought of it before, but it quickly dawned on me that in general, anyone who claims to have the heavenly hope, never had it at their baptism. They almost always received their 'calling' after several years as a Christian.

  So when were they "baptized in holy spirit", thereby being subject to two baptisms? Hence my reasons for the following submission;

  Baptized in the Holy Spirit

  (Acts 2:38) Peter [said] to them: "Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.

  (When would people receive holy spirit?)

  (Acts 5:32) And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler."

  (Who qualified to receive holy spirit?)

  (Acts 10:45-46) And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations. For they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God.

  (Was the holy spirit restricted to certain people?)

  (Acts 11:16-17) At this I called to mind the saying of the Lord, how he used to say, ‘John, for his part, baptized with water, but YOU will be baptized in holy spirit.’ If, therefore, God gave the same free gift to them as he also did to us who have believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I should be able to hinder God?"

  (John 1:33) Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one that baptizes in holy spirit.’

  (Paul said that there was "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"; (Do the two verses above apply to his words?)

  (Acts 15:7-8) Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: "Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also.

  (To whom did Jehovah give holy spirit, and why?)

  (Acts 19:2) and he said to them: "Did you receive holy spirit when YOU became believers?"

  (What did Paul expect to happen to anyone who became a believer in Christ's ransom?

  (Ephesians 1:13-14) But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.

  (Ephesians 4:30) Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.

  (What sequence of events led to someone receiving holy spirit?)

  (Titus 3:5) but according to his mercy he saved us through the bath that brought us to life and through the making of us new by holy spirit.

  (Was Paul addressing his words to only those with the heavenly hope?)
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  wolfman85

  Very good question. In the first century was obvious to everyone when someone was baptized in holy spirit. Today I do not know. I ask myself whether I had or I have the holy spirit because I have not felt anything special as an indication that I have received. I wonder if the fact to manifest the fruit that appears in Galatians 5:22,23 is a sign of receiving the holy spirit in our lives.

  Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
  Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: Against Such there is no law.

  So far I'm still not clear on this.
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  Nambo

  I had felt the Holy Spirit prior to Baptism, allways internally.

  When I was a Witness, I never thought of myself to be of the "Annointed", however, about half hour after I got baptised, I felt the Holy Spirit on the outside of me, as if it where being poured over me, I just assumed all Witnesses felt this after they got baptised.

  Its only after having left the Witnesses and studying and remembering that Iam considering I was annointed in Holy Spirit because that is what annointing is, having something poured over you.
• 

  Bobcat

  Searcher:

  Some insight can be obtained by comparing two accounts that are seperated by about three years of time. I'll paste them here first for easy reference:

  (John 3:1-17) 3 ... Nic·o·de′mus ... 2 ... came to him [Jesus] in the night ... 3 ... Jesus said to him: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nic·o·de′mus said to him: "How ... ? ... 5 Jesus answered: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel because I told you, YOU people must be born again. 8 ... 9 In answer Nic·o·de′mus said to him: "How can these things come about?" 10 In answer Jesus said to him: "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet do not know these things? 11 Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but YOU people do not receive the witness we give. 12 ... 13 ... 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life. 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.

  (Much was edited out of Jn 3:1-17 to get to the main points)

  (Matthew 19:16-29) 16 Now, look! a certain one came up to him and said: "Teacher, what good must I do in order to get everlasting life?" 17 He said to him: ... 18 ... Jesus said: "Why, You must not murder, ... 20 The young man said to him: "I have kept all these ... what yet am I lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him: "If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings ... and you will have treasure in heaven ... 22 ... the young man ... went away grieved ... 23 But Jesus said to his disciples: "Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to YOU, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle's eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God." 25 When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: "Who really can be saved?" 26 Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Then Peter said to him in reply: "Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?" 28 Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.

  (Much edited to get to the main points)

  Now for some comparisons:

  The section in John occurs near Passover of 30. The section from Matthew occurs near Passover of 33. Three years apart. (I'm using the Society's dating here.) Timewise, the main difference is the three years.

  Now notice in John: Being "born again," 'seeing the Kingdom of God,' being "born from water and spirit," being "born from the spirit," "believing in him [Jesus]," 'having everlasting life,' 'that everyone exercising faith in him might have everlasting life,' and "for the world to be saved through him." are all part of the same discussion. (Some commentators says that Jesus' words end at verse 15 and John adds his comments starting in verse 16. Most, though, say Jesus' words extend to about verse 21.)

  Moreover, Jesus chides Nicodemus for not knowing these things despite his being a "teacher in Israel." The implication of this is that these things were taught in the OT. Most probably Jesus has Jer 31:31-33 and possibly other similar verses in mind. Thus, Jesus could not have been referring to going to heaven - that was a surprise, even for the disciples.

  Notice also, in the discussion with Nicodemus, Jesus says in verse 11: " ... What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but YOU people do not receive the witness we give." In other words, what Jesus said is not just what "HE" was saying, but was what "WE" [Jesus and his disciples, based on the context also which stretches back to 2:13] were preaching about. Thus, what Jesus was describing to Nicodemus was also understood by his disciples.

  Now, three years later in the discussion with the rich ruler: 'Getting everlasting life,' 'having treasure in heaven,' 'getting into the kingdom of the heavens,' and 'getting into the kingdom of God' are all tied together by Jesus as being the same thing. Then the disciples asked, "Who really can be saved?" They understood Jesus' references to life and the Kingdom to 'being saved.'

  They then ask Jesus, 'what will there be for us?' [his then present disciples]. Jesus goes on to explain about sitting on thrones and judging.

  The conclusion: What Jesus was talking about to Nicodemus, with reference to being 'born from water and spirit' was not referring to sitting on thrones and judging, nor to going to heaven. It was what all possible disciples of Jesus would have to experience.

  In Romans 6:1-7, baptism is equated with dying and coming to life again.

  I hope an analysis of these thoughts will help.

  Take Care
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  The Searcher

  @wolfman - thanks for adding the Galatians Scriptures to help add force to the reasoning.

  @ bobcat - thanks for your in depth detail, which once again highlights the fact that not all 1st century Christians had the heavenly hope.

  Can you imagine a Jew approaching Jesus and asking, "Teacher, what good must I do in order to get IMMORTALITY?"

  Jesus never promised anyone immortality, but always "everlasting life".

  I despise the reasoning that the "anointed" are "baptized in holy spirit" but the "other sheep" are only "given it".
• 

  BluesBrother

  An old book "Life Everlasting - in Freedom of The Sons of God" [1966] p106

  Rom. 6 3 - 5

  "3 Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection;"

  "Only the Almighty God the Heavenly FAther, the giver of the cup can perform such a baptism. He is the one who determines who are the ones that may be baptized into union with his anointed son Jesus Christ. He is the one who determines who are to be the ones that may be united with Christ .........He is the one who determines whether the water baptism, which is a symbol of the believers presentation of himself to God to do the Divine willshall be followed by Christ's baptism the baptism into his death. The ones who , after water baptism , God picks to be baptized or immersed into Christ , he anoints with his holy spirit............."

  At least , that is what they said at the time..
• 

  Bobcat

  Blues Brother:

  [quote from Everlasting Life book]

  As you said, you were just quoting their view. Thanks for that.

  I got out my copy so as to make a rebuttal to what they said. But to tell you the truth, the book is such a verbose mixture of out of order scripture quoting and WT assertions. (No, wait. WT assertions based on WT assertions - WT assertions 2 .) Its like trying to untangle someone else's uncommented computer spagetti code. I think they hope to win merely by confounding you into submission.

  See Terry's quoted list, number 36 here.

  I think I'll go have a beer.

  Take Care
• 

  The Searcher

  @ bluesbrother & bobcat;

  Thanks for the reference and your explanations which make it so easy to understand! All these years wondering, and now it becomes crystal clear!!

  When you insert a man-made interpretation into the Bible, you then have to invent another man-made interpretation to try to justify the first one.

  A quote in a recent study Watchtower from Brother Storrs said, "Let us compare Scripture with Scripture". Some people today don't seem to want to do that - they'd rather have their "ears tickled" and be told what the Scriptures mean.

  A sincere question to any doubting brothers & sisters reading this; do you do deep personal Bible study or deep personal literature study?

  There is a deep chasm between the two when it comes to certain "teachings of men".
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  Chariklo

  It has seemed to me that deep literature study is what Witnesses do.

  I have not yet met one who does Bible Study, as opposed to Bible Study directed and guided by the WT.

  I thought Witnesses believed that studying the Bible on one's own is frowned upon and referred to as "going ahead of the brothers".

  Am I wrong? have I been missing something?
• 

  Jeffro

  No one, and never.

  To quote The Watchtower, 15 August 2011, page 22: "mental or emotional imbalance might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling."