Our Sins

by radar 28 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  gumby

  How is this fair?

  If your dad tells you not to do something and you do it....is it fair if you get in trouble?
• 

  aChristian

  Xander,

  You wrote: Yeah, but they didn't KNOW good or evil until they 'ate' from that tree, which was their sin. How is this fair?

  Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good. For Adam had not only talked with God himself, but he and his wife had both walked with God in the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:8) So, since Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good, their eating from "the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil" represented their also gaining a knowledge of evil.

  God knew that, as free people, Adam and Eve could not possess any knowledge of evil. For simply having a knowledge of evil corrupts free people and makes them unworthy of eternal life. How? Because when free people have a knowledge of evil they always, at least briefly, consider doing evil. And, even having evil thoughts for a brief fleeting moment makes people less righteous than God. Why is that? because the Bible tells us that "In God there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5) So, since only people who are perfectly righteous deserve eternal life, free people who are automatically corrupted by a knowledge of evil are all unworthy of eternal life, and thus they all deserve to die.

  That, I believe, is what was represented by Adam being told that if he ate from the "tree of the knowledge of good AND bad" that he would die. For eternal life is something which God says only those who are perfectly righteous deserve. And free people can never be perfectly righteous. So free people can never be worthy of eternal life. They can only hope to receive it by God overlooking their unrighteousness. Fortunately for us, God has said that He will do just that, if we will only believe in our hearts that the death of His only Son Jesus Christ paid the price of all of our sins. When we do this God willingly overlooks all of our unrighteousness and views as being perfectly righteous, and thus fully worthy of eternal life.
• 

  radar

  AChristian

  Your reasoning is a bit muddled to say the least!

  First off you say : “ Human beings have a sinful nature. A nature which God gave us.
  Then later you say : “ For simply having a knowledge of evil corrupts free people and makes them unworthy of eternal life.

  And…then you say: even having evil thoughts for a brief fleeting moment makes people less righteous than God. Why is that? because the Bible tells us that "In God there is no darkness at all."

  Now if you saying that God gave man a sinful nature, where did God get it from to give it Adam, if “there is no Darkness in him”?
  If this is Gods plan as you suggest, then he must himself be responsible for evil.
  You are in effect saying that God is responsible for the chaos in the world, and we should all be grateful to him for it. Because it will perfect our love, DUH!!

  This is like saying that a child should thank the man that raped his mother because without him doing the evil act the Child would not have been born and know love.

  There is so much about your answer that is off mark. Xanda’s comments are more reasonable than yours.

  Justin you seem to have a more balanced view regarding how the Ransom theory came to be.

  Beck as you imply, the ransom theory (from apostle Paul) would not stand up in a court of law today.
  Thanks for your input.

  Grumpy you said: “Why does Mcdonalds buy land in the desert?”
  What a silly analogy you came up with here, so this is a silly answer: To feed the Nomads Mc Manna Sandwich’s.
• 

  aChristian

  Radar,

  The point I was making was that God made us free. Because He did, we can do what is wrong and often do. This makes us less righteous than God, because God cannot do wrong and so never does. (The Bible tells us God is "incorruptible.")

  When I said that God made us "sinful," I was defining "sinful" as being less "righteous than God." For the Bible tells us that "All unrighteousness is sin."

  To say that God is responsible for evil because He made us free to do both good and evil is like saying that steak knife manufactuers are resposible for murders because their product is able to be used in that way.
• 

  NameWithheld

  Boy, I don't like your god very much aChristian. Talk about stacking the deck against a person!
• 

  aChristian

  "Stacking the deck against a person"? Let's see.

  God creates us as free people, allowing us to do both right and wrong. So He does not force anyone to do things "His way." Is that OK with you so far? Then He treats every one of us equally well, allowing His rain and sunshine to fall upon all of us, both those who choose to serve him and those who don't, allowing both good things and bad things to happen to all of us equally, both those who choose to serve Him and those who don't, all of our natural lives. Is that OK with you so far? Then He says, that since only those who are perfectly righteous deserve to live forever, He will overlook all of our unrighteousness and give us all eternal life, even though none of us deserve it. Is that OK with you so far? Then He says that He will do this if we will just believe in our hearts that He paid the price for all of our unrighteousness by allowing His only begotten Son to die in our place. Is that OK with you? Maybe not.

  This seems to be the part that is too much for many people. They say God should just give them eternal life and not ask anything of them. They say that God is asking too much of them when He says they must believe something in order to gain eternal life. To me this seems quite odd. Why? Because people are often willing to believe things to gain just a few years of life. But they are unwilling to believe something to gain eternal life.

  People often jump out of burning buildings because they are willing to believe the promises of complete strangers that they will catch them in a large blanket when they do. People on sinking ships often jump into icy cold seas because they are willing to believe the promises of complete strangers that they will immediately pull them out of those waters and into a nearby lifeboat. They don't complain that their rescuers are asking too much of them. They don't say that their rescuers should come and physically carry them out of those buildings and off of those ships. They don't say that their rescuers asked too much of them by requiring them to take a "leap of faith" to gain life. But people complain all the time that God asks too much of us by requiring us to take a similar "leap of faith" to gain eternal life.

  Go figure.
• 

  Xander

  If your dad tells you not to do something and you do it....is it fair if you get in trouble?

  Say you have a 3 year old. Old enough to understand English, can even communicate a little, but knowledge of right vs wrong is completely out of their grasp. You tell them not to pick up a gun and shoot people because it's wrong. You then leave the gun, loaded, in the middle of the room on the floor so it's good and easy to get at.

  They then use it anyway. Kills a neighbor kid.

  Now, do you execute them on the spot for disobeying you? Or, at least, lock them away in prison for the rest of their lives? HELL NO!! What they did was wrong, yes, but they don't have a concept of right vs. wrong yet. You told them not to, fine, but you can't judge them based on that.

  In fact, in any modern court of law, YOU'D be charged with a crime here.

  Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good.

  How do you know that?

  For Adam had not only talked with God himself, but he and his wife had both walked with God in the Garden of Eden.

  Proves nothing. I talk w/ my niece all the time. The wife and I take her to parks frequently. Does she know good vs. Evil? No!

  Since you start with the assumption that 'God is good' you must assume (key here, you are making assumptions already) that he wouldn't devise a test that was impossible to pass.

  If you only take what is written at face value, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good OR evil until they are from the tree. As Genesis 3:9 stated after eating the fruit: "Then the eyes of both of them opened..."

  God creates us as free people, allowing us to do both right and wrong

  But, he didn't create Adam and Eve as 'free people'. Read the Genesis account critically...

  1) Adam and Eve were naked and didn't realize it
  2) Eve thought nothing about talking animals
  3) Adam seemed to really think god made Eve from his rib (IE., believed whatever he was told? naive?)

  Does that sound like an adult to you? Or, more like a three year old child?

  A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
  --George Santayana
• 

  aChristian

  Xander,

  I wrote: Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good.

  You asked: How do you know that? .... Does [a young child] know good vs. Evil? No!

  I didn't say Adam and Eve already knew "good vs. Evil" or that they knew good and evil. I said they already knew good. For they already knew God, and "God is good."

  You wrote: Since you start with the assumption that 'God is good' you must assume ... that he wouldn't devise a test that was impossible to pass.

  I don't assume that at all. In fact I think a good God deliberately designed a test that He knew Adam and Eve would fail. But I believe that He did so for a very "good" reason. What you call a "test," I call a demonstration. I believe the events in Eden were set up to demonstrate the fact that people are incapable of living perfectly righteous lives, and that because we are, we are all undeserving of eternal life.

  You wrote: But, he didn't create Adam and Eve as 'free people'. Read the Genesis account critically...

  I have.

  You wrote: 1) Adam and Eve were naked and didn't realize it.

  I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden was meant by God to illustrate some important lessons. Primarily that no human being, being less righteous than God, is deserving of eternal life. And that because we are always less righteous than God we are always in need of His forgiveness even when we have not recently committed any "sinful" act. I believe this lesson was illustrated by Adam and Eve being totally unaware of their nakedness before God until after they had committed a blatant act of disobedience. (Nakedness is a condition always portrayed as shameful in the scriptures.) Then, suddenly, after they had "sinned" they became aware of their nakedness and felt the need to "hide from God." Just as we often only become aware of our shameful condition before God after committing some "sinful act." And just as we then often feel ashamed of ourselves and try to hide from God by withdrawing from Him by not praying or by not attending Church, etc., until we finally get over our guilt. However, the fact is, we are no more worthy to stand in the presence of a perfect God before committing a "sinful act" than we are after doing so. Just as Adam and Eve were, in reality, just as naked before they disobeyed God as they were after doing so. They just didn't realize it.

  I am willing to discuss this subject matter further with you if you really want to understand the scriptures. If you do, let me know.
• 

  radar

  Achristian

  You can't have it both ways.

  You said : "The point I was making was that God made us free. Because He did, we can do what is wrong and often do. This makes us less righteous than God, because God cannot do wrong and so never does"

  By your logic this means that god aint free! for he can do no wrong.

  Regarding the rain thing see my post : The Logic of Christ.
• 

  julien

  Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good.

  aChristian are you saying A&E had knowledge of good so they should have known it was good to obey, but no knowledge of bad so as to satisfy the written implication (since they hadn't yet eaten from the ToKoG&B)? If so I don't know how you can seriously hold such an opinion.