What is THE lie?

by The Searcher 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    2 Thessalonians 2:11; "So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie...."

    This scripture has intrigued me for quite a while.

    Exactly what is "the lie"? It's singular - it's not speaking about various lies or deceptions, only one!

    So what lie (amongst His own people) could possibly be so reprehensible and odious in Jehovah's eyes?

    My guess is this; "that the Christian Greek scriptures were written solely for and about, those who would rule with Christ." (but by extension, the principles apply to the so-called "other sheep")

    This teaching invalidates and conceals so many Bible's truths.

    Anyone have any other ideas for "the lie"?

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    That doesnt fit the context. If you read the whole section it should be more obvious than that...

  • mynameislame
    mynameislame

    It is scriptures like that that make me think the bible was written by Satan.

  • glenster
  • Farkel
    Farkel

    :2 Thessalonians 2:11; "So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie...."

    :This scripture has intrigued me for quite a while.

    :Exactly what is "the lie"? It's singular - it's not speaking about various lies or deceptions, only one!

    Read 2 thessalonais 2:11 again. It's really quite simple.

    "The Lie" is this: "we speak for God."

    What lie could be worse than that when it has been proven to be a lie for the whole existence of this religion?

    Farkel

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Searcher:

    Actually, it kind of depends on how the context is interpreted. Some commentators see "the lawless one" as a coming individual, "the Antichrist." With that viewpoint, they see "the lie" as relating to verse 4 where he 'proclaims himself to be God.' (ESV) The NWT has, "publicly showing himself to be a god." Either translation is viable since "publicly showing" can mean "to show by argument, to demonstrate, prove." Thus, effectively "proclaiming." "God" or "a god" is also possible, although, at least in English, you would get a somewhat different connotation from each.

    The Bible Knowledge Commentary says, "'The Lie' is the claim that the man of lawlessness is God." Similarly, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek NT says, "[the dative] Article [referring to "the"] may refer back to the claim of deity by the Antichrist."

    For reference, here is verse 4 from the NWT and ESV:

    (2 Thes 2:4 NWT) . . .He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called "god" or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

    (2Thes 2:4 ESV) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God

    Some take "the lie" in the same way they take "the truth," which phrase is scattered about in the context. "The truth," as Paul uses it, doesn't mean any one particular fact, but rather a whole body of beliefs, even a lifestyle. From that, "the lie" could also be taken as the "lying signs and portents" (vs.9), and "every unrighteous deception" (vs.10), as well as "an operation of error" (vs.11), all of these collectively. (Or, "an operation of error" may be explanatory, describing the "lying signs and portents" as a whole.)

    For reference, here is vv.9-12:

    (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NWT) . . .But the lawless one's presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Since the context is speaking of "those who are perishing," a whole group collectively, particular individuals may or may not be taken in by any particular aspects of "the lie" (when "the lie" is seen in this way).

    Personally (your milage may vary), I prefer this latter application because in the context, "the operation of error," meaning all "the lying signs and portents" is for "a retribution." Its purpose in God allowing it (vs.11) is to expose those who "did not accept the love of the truth," or "believe the truth," "but took pleasure in unrighteousness." I don't think one particular lie could accomplish that end. In this view, "the lie" is a means by which God makes a clear demarcation between those being saved and those not. He simply uses Satan and "the man of lawlessness" towards that end.

    Take Care

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    LOL, IDK. You would have to go back to 50 C.E. and ask Paul if you really wanted to know; but if you try to apply the Scriptures to a time period other than the one they were written in, you will always create problems. There might be a vague reference to Caligula in verse 4, but for the rest you would have to go back in time and ask the good people of Thessalonica.

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    Thanks to all for their contributions, and thanks again to Bobcat for a detailed Scriptural reasoning.

    I perceive my original submission was not clearly laid out; however my contention is simply that numerous all -encompassing Bible teachings (whatever they are) are either hidden, twisted, or destroyed, by the much repeated man-made doctrine, "it doesn't mean you - it means us!!".

    I don't make any apologies for repeating this; one of the greatest false teachings is that "alien residents were not party to the Law Covenant and had no inheritance with 'natural' Israelites".

    A corrupt and demonic lie!!

    Examine the account in Exodus as to who was there and assented to the terms and conditions Jehovah offered.

    Then examine the backgrounds of Rahab and Ruth and ask yourself, "did they not become full members of Jehovah's nation?".

    This particular falsehood is used to "justify" a discrimination between the heavenly-hopers and earthly-hopers, (not classes - I detest that term) and to exclude them from being accepted as sons of God now, and part of His spiritual nation.

    "Test the inspired expression".

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Searcher:

    Concerning the idea that the NT is only written for a relatively tiny class of Christians, here are some verses that I think trump that idea:

    (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. . .

    Here, "all Scripture" is for "the man of God."

    (1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.

    Here the things "written," Bible examples, were meant "for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived. That would certainly include the "great crowd" who "come out of the great tribulation." (Rev 7:14)

    (Acts 17:30) . . .True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.

    "God" is "now" (even in the 1st century when Paul was speaking this) "telling mankind that they should all ... repent." That would necessarily include more than the 144,000.

    You are right to think of this idea as a big lie. Compounding their lie is their hypocrasy of saying that it doesn't apply but judicially enforcing it upon those to whom they say it doesn't apply. They want it both ways. "The promises and the forgiveness and the mediatorship don't apply to you, but you still need to do the preaching and everything else we say."

    It's interesting to take Pauls words of judgment to Peter:

    (Galatians 2:14) . . ."If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?"

    Now, let's reword them. "Jew"="Anointed Christian," "Nations"=Great Crowd."

    (Galatians 2:14) . . ."If you, though you are an anointed Christian, live as the great crowd does, and not as anointed Christians do, how is it that you are compelling people of the great crowd to live according to anointed Christian practice?"

    Paul was right to call it "hypocrasy." But in fact, they are not concerned about "anointed Christians." They are concerned with their own power base. This idea of a "faithful and discreet slave class" is just like the image of the wizard of oz, just a smoke screen. Anyone who claims to be an "anointed Christian" outside of themselves is called into question. But don't dare question their calling.

    Take Care

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    @ BOBCAT

    It would be interesting to know what statistics there are to quantify approximately how many Christians lived in the 1st century, prior to John's death.

    I would hazard a conservative guess that the sum total would exceed 250,000, (a bit more than 144,000) when taking into account not just Judea, but all of the congregations established by Paul and others - Colossians 1:23 = "Which was preached in all creation that is under heaven."

    The contention that all early Christians were heavenly - hopers is a nonsense, and not Scripturally based.

    To maintain such an idea is to say that no one had a choice in the matter - whether Jewish or Gentile convert.

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