Hint: the bible claims that "Moses" was trained in the secrets of the Pharaohs, as a member of the royal family. Much of what "Moses" knows is often reflective of ancient beliefs of Egyptians on cosmology, anatomy, etc and was not common knowledge amongst the rank and file. I dare say you'll find more parallels by examining the astrological beliefs of not the Greeks, but Egyptians and Babylonians (the host country when the "final" drafts of genesis were compiled).
Odd, isn't it? Genesis never mentions Satan; Job mentions a serpent or Adam maybe once or not at all - and Eve gets 4 refs in whole Bible
by kepler 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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King Solomon
Btw, the important element here is to look at how the astrology given in Genesis fits into the historical context: those constellations were seen as elements of pagan worship, so by ascribiing their relevance to the 12 tribes, the Torah was robbing them of their meaning from other competing practices. In fact, a one-to-one fit isn't important, as they eroded their meaning as a whole via reassignment.
Another example would be the serpent was made fun of, and cursed by YHWH earlier, primarily to say to snake worshippers that snakes are NOT Gods, but creations. Same with Genesis 1:1 being a point-blank attack on those who worshipped naturalistic elements saying, "NO,YHWH made all if this!"
Always gotta consider the agenda of the book, in the context of the beliefs of the day....
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mP
Leo:
As for Zebulon, the text states that "Zebulon will live by the seashore, and become a haven for ships, his border will extend toward Sidon" (v. 13). Quite obviously a reference to the geography of the territory of Zebulon. But for some reason this is supposed to identify Zebulon with Pisces, the two Fishes. Why? Because fish are found in the sea? That's it?
MP:
Well Xians have been well known for fish symbols, in fact many xians in America have these same fish symbol veseca pisces on their car. The connection there is of course that Jesus announced the new age of Pisces, which explains all the fish imagery. If this language can work for xians its fair to apply the same in this case.
Perhaps i should have picked a better example, i do apologise that it and its conflicts cause problems for you.
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kepler
Test. I can't see some of the posts.
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mP
King Solomon:
Btw, the important element here is to look at how the astrology given in Genesis fits into the historical context: those constellations were seen as elements of pagan worship, so by ascribiing their relevance to the 12 tribes, the Torah was robbing them of their meaning from other competing practices. In fact, a one-to-one fit isn't important, as they eroded their meaning as a whole via reassignment.
MP:
Not quiet the Bible never condemns astrology, it condemns other astrologers.
The classic example being found in Matthew the so called Gospel to the jews uses astrology in its Star of Bethelem to convince fellow Jews that the stars point to Jesus. Its particular strange if astrology is evil and wrong that God would use this device to pronounce his son. This is of cours eis never explored and explained satisfactorily. Xians simply adopt the stars as good, which means they accept astrology as a "tool" or dvice of god, while JWs try their best to pretend it was Satan. How a star points to a single house is never explained.
The Torah paritcularly and the OT includes a recipe for religious worship and life amongst other semi historical recordings. It contains much religious ritual, and for a skeptic like me I cant help wonder why god had so much time for ritual and the rights of priests and so little time to spend on writing some kind stuff like treating women, slaves and kids as equals . To put it simply these priests want allthe religious business from the locals, they dont want competition. Its fine to sacrifice but you must come to us and not the pagans even if we build the same temples w/ the same religious significance present in them. For example the temple in Jerusalem,is not unique many other temples w/ similar exact plans and orientation have been found. We have the same thing with t he WTS and its hatred of other xianity. They both claim to read the Bible in their own way but the WTS wants you to visit their establishments and give them money and not the competition.
Money is almost always the answer, the religion of the ancient Jews was very much money oriented. Contributions for the temple, the best food for sacrifice, but only after the priests got to take a choice portion and so on.
People think the Bible condemns divination, but it doesnt. We can read those scriptures and see that it is condemning other diviners and yet at the same time the holy priest of Jehovah himself used divination. Urim and thummim (sp) are two rocks found on their chest which they consult to find gods will. The apostles themselves threw sticks after Judas died to select Matthais as his replacement. Strnage that both cases show that divination and its forms were very much practiced by jews and xians. These simple facts are of course never explored in xian literature. The WTS never explains in any form exactly how or what urim and thummim were used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim
A passage — 1 Samuel 14:41 — in the Books of Samuel is regarded by biblical scholars as key to understanding the Urim and Thummim; [2] the passage describes an attempt to identify a sinner via divination, by repeatedly splitting the people into two groups and identifying which group contains the sinner. In the version of this passage in the masoretic text, it describesSaul and Jonathan being separated from the rest of the people, and lots being cast between them; the Septuagint version, however, states that Urim would indicate Saul and Jonathan, while Thummim would indicate the people. In the Septuagint, a previous verse [4] uses a phrase which is usually translated as inquired of God, which is significant as the grammatical form of the Hebrew implies that the inquiry was performed by objects being manipulated; scholars view it as evident from these verses and versions that cleromancy was involved, and that Urimand Thummim were the names of the objects being cast. [3] [disputed – discuss]
The description of the clothing of the Jewish high priest in the Book of Exodus portrays the Urim and Thummim as being put into the sacred breastplate, worn by the high priest over theEphod. [5] Where the Scripture elsewhere describes an Ephod being used for divination, scholars presume that it is referring to use of the Urim and Thummim in conjunction with the Ephod, as this seems to be intimately connected with it; [2] similarly where non-prophets are portrayed as asking HaShem for guidance, and the advice isn't described as given by visions, scholars think that Urim and Thummim were the medium implied. [3] In all but two cases ( 1 Samuel 10:22 and 2 Samuel 5:23 ), the question is one which is effectively answered by a simple yesor no; [3] a number of scholars believe that the two exceptions to this pattern, which give more complex answers, were originally also just sequences of yes/no questions, but became corrupted by later editing. [3]
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kepler
The "fix" worked.
Save for introducing the general topic in the first place, I can't add much of substance to the twelve tribe - twelve zodiac sign debate. I cannot say whether the number of tribes and signs in the zodiac is coincidental or not and not sure how far the present day zodiac signs go back into antiquity. In current day astrology there is a dis-connect between dates and signs of about one sign, so whenever one uses the convention for locating stars in the sky based on calendar "signs", it's good to use windage in aiming.
Looking at calendar systems several years ago, it looked to me like the Hebrew calendar was derivative of the Babylonian. The months sounded similar, it started in the spring and used the same sort of extra month corrections to compensate effects of 365 day years with 30 day increments.I believe this was lunar vs. the Egyptian solar calendar. Yet the oldest calendrical records found in Jerusalem appear to be based on an autumn start... The Exodus account seems to be based on the Babylonian-like calendar while the events are supposed to be occurring in a society with a solar calendar.
I don't remember any accounts of the ancient Hebrews investing nearly as much energy in observing the sky as their Mesopotamian neighbors - or leaving considerable astronomical records. Hence, that's why I would be inclined to say theirs Babylonian derived rather than vice versa. As to Babylonian astrology, I that was a rather late development, but also a consequence of collecting a lot of data and trying to correlate it with something. Back in the sixties, I remember how cancer researchers correlated cancer with cranberries. And they weren't Babylonians.
It is odd as well that Daniel purports to be about an Israelite who learns to be a soothsayer in the court of Nebuchadnezzar, but yet neither the first or third person account tells us anything about Babylonian astronomy. Only that Daniel was the best dream interpreter of any of them. That seems to be a sacred calling now very much in neglect. I don't think the current authorities have any dreams, much less anyone to call on to have them interpreted. But I also had a hard time, in given episode or chapter, getting a grasp on which ruler of Babylon Daniel was supposed to be talking to or working for...
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King Solomon
Not quiet the Bible never condemns astrology, it condemns other astrologers.
Hence why I said it condemned other practices, not that it condemned astrology, per se. It condoned it's OWN form of astrology.
But we're basically saying the same thing: there were Hebraic cults in existence which worshipped in ways unapproved of by the authors of the Torah (eg Asherah worship, snake worship, Sun/star worship, etc), and their job was to stamp out these "pagan" forms of worship, or not allow them to enter into wider acceptance via syncretism.
The classic example being found in Matthew the so called Gospel to the jews uses astrology in its Star of Bethelem to convince fellow Jews that the stars point to Jesus. Its particular strange if astrology is evil and wrong that God would use this device to pronounce his son. This is of cours eis never explored and explained satisfactorily. Xians simply adopt the stars as good, which means they accept astrology as a "tool" or dvice of god, while JWs try their best to pretend it was Satan. How a star points to a single house is never explained.
Yup, the Star of Bethlehem is a syncretistic element that's been staring Xians in their face since their childhoods, and they never thought to wonder who the 3 Wise Men were, where they came from, or what the Gift of the Magi is all about (of course, Magi is where the word "magic" comes from; JWs are taught that magic is EVIL, and are taught to SHUN it, so they never learn about the Zoroasterian roots of their belief system). Interesting that the name Zoroaster contains the word "astro-" meaning "star"; they were associated with star-worship.
Zoroastrian philosophy influenced Judaism and Greek philosophies, esp after Darius conquered Greece, Babylon, etc and they all sent their representatives to the Capitol in Persia, so plenty of opportunity for cross-pollenation of ideas.
To put it simply these priests want allthe religious business from the locals, they dont want competition. Its fine to sacrifice but you must come to us and not the pagans even if we build the same temples w/ the same religious significance present in them. For example the temple in Jerusalem,is not unique many other temples w/ similar exact plans and orientation have been found. We have the same thing with t he WTS and its hatred of other xianity. They both claim to read the Bible in their own way but the WTS wants you to visit their establishments and give them money and not the competition.
You're preaching to the choir, my friend. The Torah was the single-most important non-secular Job Creation Project ever written, ensuring a livelihood for priests in the Temple, who demanded a pound of flesh for every animal slaughtered in Israel; otherwise the owner committed a grave sin. It's all about power and control, and the stuggle amongst competing factions (priests, rabbis, Kings, etc). As you say, it's all about following the sheckel.
Interesting bit about the Urim and Thummin: perhaps the Elders should have a Ouiji Board present, to help them out when deciding to disfellowship someone? It would be perfectly consistent with the Hebrew practices they hold as sacrosanct, LOL!
I've always found it interesting that the Intelligent Designer didn't understand the basics of human anatomy, instead allowing himself to be quoted by "Moses" as referring to "evil thoughts in the hearts of men". The Hebrews literally believed the heart WAS the organ of cognition, as were other organs of the torso. The kidneys were considered the organs of decision-making, and hence why they were valued as a sacrifical guilt offering. Hence, God instructed that they offer animal kidneys to mitigate sinning, and not the animal's brain (which would make sense, if God knew the role of the organs).
And the brain, you ask? What was it's role, the pinnacle of God's creation, the center of congition for man? Hebrews thought it was the seat of the life-generative force (ruah), and the cerebrospinal fluid found in the head traveled down the spinal cord to enter the testicles, as sperm. They thought the brain was basically a huge testicle, producing life-giving fluids...
You'd think the Divine Creator might've taken a moment to let them in on the loop, vs telling the how to cut their hair to his satisfaction...
A fascinating book on the subject of how ancient men from various cultured viewed their world is RB Onion's "Origins of European Thought". The more you know about their basic beliefs, the more proof that it's all a big (yet very old) lie, perpetuated by those who are too lazy to look into it (or don't WANT to look into it, to excuse having to change).
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King Solomon
In current day astrology there is a dis-connect between dates and signs of about one sign, so whenever one uses the convention for locating stars in the sky based on calendar "signs", it's good to use windage in aiming.
I had a good laugh when they introduced a "lost" zodiac sign about two years ago, and alot of people found out they really weren't the sign they thought they were their entire lives. It was pretty funny, as some got REALLY upset....
I don't remember any accounts of the ancient Hebrews investing nearly as much energy in observing the sky as their Mesopotamian neighbors - or leaving considerable astronomical records. Hence, that's why I would be inclined to say theirs Babylonian derived rather than vice versa. As to Babylonian astrology, I that was a rather late development, but also a consequence of collecting a lot of data and trying to correlate it with something.
Remember though, the torah was compliled whilst in exile in Babylon, right before it fell. So there was opportunity to "update" it to jibe with the latest findings of their astronomical experts, and in fact the Babylonian influence might have been what they were trying to avoid (I don't know that for a fact, but it's plausible, given the battle they were facing with other "corrupt" and different beliefs threatening to mix into Judaism).
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Leolaia
so what is gen 49 about... why does jacob say all sorts of nonsense ? its a difficult chapter, ill grant that
The chapter (The Blessing of Jacob) is a poetic tribal list similar in form and content to the Song of Deborah (Judges 5) and the Blessing of Moses (Deuteronomy 33), directing either praise or criticism to individual tribes. All three were originally written in the early pre-exilic period (dates ranging between the eleventh and the eighth centuries BC), much earlier than the narratives into which they were embedded, but the latter two were redacted in the seventh or sixth centuries BC (whereas the Song of Deborah was left intact as possibly the oldest surviving text in the OT). The content largely delivers commentary on the sociopolitical circumstances involving the tribes (the Song of Deborah for instance concerns the participation of the tribes in a particular conflict) and thus the three lists furnish crucial information about the early history of Israel. The original version of the Blessing of Jacob strictly discussed the tribes as geographical/ethnic entities but when it was redacted for inclusion into the Pentateuchal materials, it was revised both to incorporate biographical themes from the patriarchical narratives as well as to the changed political circumstances of the later period. Literary criticism reveals that the Blessing of Moses and the Blessing of Jacob both were originally ten-tribe lists of Northern provenance (just like the Song of Deborah, which only listed ten tribes) that subsequently were expanded to include a total of twelve tribes. The number twelve was thus not part of the original plan of the list (as presumed by your "zodiacal" interpretation) but represents a late stage of development when twelve became the idealized number of tribes in Israel (attested in sixth-century BC tribal lists in Ezekiel 48 and P). In the case of the Blessing of Jacob, the original ten-tribe list likely did not include Simeon and Levi (v. 5-7 has clear redactional features, including dependence on the patriarchical narratives and avoidance of the metaphorical style characteristic of the other tribes). This is in accord with the absence of these tribes in the Song of Deborah and the putative original form of the Blessing of Moses (with the reference to Levi being redactional and Simeon absent even in the final form of the poem), as well as the historical evidence that the Simeon and Levi were reckoned as tribes only towards the end of the pre-exilic period (Levi, as mentioned earlier, was originally a professional priestly class and not a tribe, but later became reckoned as a dispersed tribe following the Fall of Samaria and the reforms of Josiah). The older Israelite form of the poem gave precedence to Joseph (reflecting the text's northern provenance, with the two capitals of Israel, Shechem and Samaria, being located in Manasseh), with the later Judean redaction giving priority to Judah (with the insertion of v. 10).
The content of the poem draws largely on geographical and sociopolitical characteristics of the tribes, which motivate many of the metaphors. The lion was the preeminent royal symbol in the ANE and was depicted on royal bullae (cf. the seal of Shema servant of Jeroboam II found at Megiddo), so it was likely used by the Davidides as a symbol (cf. the leonine motifs on the royal throne in 1 Kings 10:19-20, 2 Chronicles 9:18-19 as well as the likening of the king with a lion in Proverbs 19:12, 20:2). The donkey representing Issachar, on the other hand, symbolizes the tribe's subordinate status and possibly Canaanite origins (cf. Genesis 9:26, Joshua 16:10, 17:13); "he bent his back to the burden and submitted to forced labor". This possibly refers to the labor provided by the poorer people of the Valley of Jezreel to the prosperous cities of Beth-shean, Megiddo, or Tanaach nearby. The sheep-pens mentioned in the same verse is a geographical reference as the parallel in the Song of Deborah shows (Judges 5:15-16). The comment on Zebulon is entirely a geographical reference, "Zebulon dwells at the shore of the sea, he shall be a haven for ships, his flank is upon Sidon" (v. 13). The reference to Asher in v. 20 concerns its agricultural production, especially with respect to oil; the Blessing of Moses similarly mentions oil in connection with Asher (Deuteronomy 33:24). The passages about Dan, Gad, Joseph, and Benjamin all mention the tribes' military prowess; the ravenousness of Benjamin (v. 27) reflects the tribe's conquest of Moabite territory (Judges 3:15-30) and war against the Israelites (ch. 20). As for the long passage about Joseph, this is clearly an old traditional poem that draws considerably on early Canaanite motifs associated with the god El and other deities; a less archaic version of the poem appears in the Blessing of Moses in Deuteronomy 33:13-17. As for the mention of animal names in connection with tribes, this does not necessarily have anything to do with astrology but rather has straightforward links to ANE totemism: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14460-totemism.
im not sure why you focus on greek astrology, the book of genesis was supposed to have been finalized before the spread of greek culture particylarly w/ alexanders empire.
Hellenistic Greek culture spread after the accession of the Macedonians, but Mycenaean Greek culture spread way, way before that, around the same time Israel began to take shape in the highlands. The Peleshet (= Philistines), Ekwesh (= the Achaeans), the Danuna (= the Danaeans, and possibly associated with the tribe of Dan) were among the Sea Peoples that were settled along the Levantine coast in the thirteenth and twelfth centuries BC, diffusing Greek culture to Palestine and also Semitic culture was transmitted back to Greece, likely for some time even before this. As I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago, the Boeotians had a very high concentration of West Semitic mythological names, place names, and so forth. And as far as the zodiac is concerned, the Mycenaean Greeks are thought to have acquired it indirectly from the Babylonians (who invented it), possibly through a Hittite medium, and the Egyptians were influenced by the Greeks, reproducing a zodiac very similar to the Greek one in the 18th Dynasty. And since the Egyptians ruled over the Levant in the 18th and 19th Dynasties, one would expect diffusion of Egyptian culture there as well by the forebears of the Israelites.
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mP
Leo:
Before I comment on your latest reply I want to clarify what exactly was wrong w/ my assertion. In summary, im stating that Genesis 49 like the OT itself has multiple layers. There is the simple reading, which in the case of Gen 49 is an apparent blessing by Jacob the father over his sons. Im glad you agree that it has much deeper meanings, and limiting the answer to a blessing is plain and pathetic.
However poettry does not explain all the strange comparisons and symbology, in fact it explains almost none of it, Zebulun and Asher being understnadble. The poet who prepared and others who edited it later on, have by your own explaination included a lot of words, which add nothing to our understanding of the purpose of the chapter.
I will now examine some of your agricultural and history matches.
The passages about Dan, Gad, Joseph, and Benjamin all mention the tribes' military prowess; the ravenousness of Benjamin (v. 27) reflects the tribe's conquest of Moabite territory ( Judges 3:15-30 ) and war against the Israelites (ch. 20).
So why pick Benjamin. All the tribes were involved in wars all over the country side. What makes the Benjamites so special to warrant being wolflike while the other tribes are not also matches. Looking at a map Moab is not even close to the homeland of the Benjamites.
The comment on Zebulon is entirely a geographical reference, "Zebulon dwells at the shore of the sea, he shall be a haven for ships, his flank is upon Sidon" (v. 13).
There are many tribes near Sidon, Zebuluon was not even near Sidon, in fact Asher actually touches Sidon. This assertion of yours is completely wrong. If we are to be exact this text shhould belong to Asher, with Manasseh the next best "match".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebulun,_Tribe_of
The reference to Asher in v. 20 concerns its agricultural production, especially with respect to oil; the Blessing of Moses similarly mentions oil in connection with Asher ( Deuteronomy 33:24 ).
I dont doubt that Asher produced oil amongst many other crops. However other tribes also produced agriculture, itsnot like food , each tribe would have produced much of its own food. They couldnt realistically transport food cross country like we do today. Im sorry without examining all the products of each tribes area, i find it hard to believe a maority of jews back then reading this text would have said Asher when reading that line of text. Thi s is simply too convenient.
I was only attempting to use the zodiac to explain the language, your using agriculture, history, wars which basically means you can pick anything from anything. The examples you give are inmho worse than many of mine. Is htis really a BETTER, CLOSER match than my attempt ???
GREEK INFLUENCES
If we then use the descriptions in 49 to select tribes, im given different people we will get conflicting lists. This is the same fault with my examples, simply because we do not know all the details about astrology in the ancient Hebrew world. By definition astrology is ambiguous at times, the same attrobutes are often found in multiple characters, for example there are many fighters in the zodiac and its constellations, like orion, etc.
Hellenistic Greek culture spread after the accession of the Macedonians, but Mycenaean Greek culture spread way, way before that, around the same time Israel began to take shape in the highlands. The Peleshet (= Philistines), Ekwesh (= the Achaeans), the Danuna (= the Danaeans, and possibly associated with the tribe of Dan) were among the Sea Peoples that were settled along the Levantine coast in the thirteenth and twelfth centuries BC, diffusing Greek culture t
I am well aware that the Greeks were very much well travelled by the sea which of course makes perfect sense given the many islands. However your statement is a bit simple implying that somehow there was one Greek culture and somehow they had a monopoly that meant everyone adopted their ideas. The ideas of Athens were rejected by the Spartans who had a very different society and structure.
Egyptians were influenced by the Greeks, reproducing a zodiac very similar to the Greek one in the 18th Dynasty.
This is just wrong.
The Eighteenth Dynasty of ancient Egypt (notated Dynasty XVIII ) [1] (c. 1550–c. 1292 BC ) is perhaps the best known of all the dynasties of ancient Egypt .
The greeks were nobodies until almost a 1000 years later. There were no philosphers, the greeks barely wrote at 1500, while the Egyptians had been writing for thousands of years by this stage. At 1500BCE, the greeks had no mathematicians and so on, they were in position to chart of calculate any charts, which would come much much later. You are mixing times and peoples on a grand scale here by thousands of years. I do however agree that the Hebrews probably learnt their astrology from either the Babylonians of the Egyptians.
For whatever reason the Hebrews in my opinon as presnted in the Bible always wannabe Egyptians. The Egyptians get very little bad rap in the Bible. It has been said that and shown by many that Solomon and his glories are just copies w/ edits of Amenhotep III. There of course was no King David in Israel, but ther was a Pharoah who shares many family member names with those of David. In fact this same admiration continues into the jesus story,where Egypt is presnted as a place where one learns stuff.
The greek connection is just SO WRONG, its not funny.
