Your argument makes no sense to me, Yadirf. I can usually guess what a person is trying to say, but not in this case.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward 54 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
JosephAlward
-
JosephAlward
RWC writes,
If you are going to raise the theory that Mark made up the stories, you must show that he did. You must not ignore the evidence that he was an eyewitness, you must not ignore the evidence that he was killed for his "made up stories", and you must not ignore the portions of the Gospels where he says what he is writing is true.
Where is your evidence that "Mark" was an eyewitness, or that he was killed, and where did he say "what he is writing is true."How old are you?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible" -
Yadirf
JosephAlward
Your argument makes no sense to me, Yadirf. I can usually guess what a person is trying to say, but not in this case.
Well, you had said previously: “If the Bible writers really expected their readers to believe this story, they would have told the readers that it was through a miracle from God that Jonah was allowed to live.”Then you brought up “the story of the sun being stopped in its tracks”. You argued that, because “the writer made sure the readers knew that this astonishing event was caused by the Lord”, it made the account more plausible.
In response to that, I simply brought up a text (namely Matthew 24:29) in which nothing whatsoever was said there as well, insofar as attributing the miraculous happenings to “the Lord”. Of course my purpose was merely to emphasize the fact that, according to YOUR way of thinking, since Matthew failed to 'make sure the readers knew that this astonishing event will be caused by the Lord' (your words for the most part) then surely the account can be nothing more than a fairy tale. In other words, this is ANOTHER text yet that would present itself as one to be labeled a fable by you -- SOLELY on the grounds that the author chose to not include words that would attribute such a celestial event to God. I think your logic here is ridiculous. I will say though that you are being very polite in your comebacks -- I haven't seen you being nasty -- but that’s about all I can say.
Hope that’s more clear now. If not, I give up for now. I must get some sleep, even as I intended to do about an hour and a half ago.
Yadirf
-
LittleToe
Joseph:
Only fundamentalists who deliberately blind themselves to the obvious can fail to see that Mark wanted his readers to think of Jonah
You're looking at this from the point of view of the fundamentalist who believes all of the Bible stories are literally true.
Seems to me that you're trying to inflame the argument with implied labels.
I believe there are sufficient details in this thread to highlight that the theory proposed is tentative at best, and in reality a complete non-starter.For another nail, albeit a small one - since the "story" of Jesus is so elaborate, do you really think that Mark would need to fall back on repetition because he'd run out of ides?
If you think that nail is weak, then I would suggest that it is as weak as the original theory presented here. -
RWC
Hello Joseph,
You have changed your argument. You are now saying that when Mark recounted Jesus calming the sea he understood that his readers would understand the similarities to the Jonah account. Earlier you argued that he made up the Jesus account by copying the Jonah account and that the similarities are the evidence that supports that idea. Do you see the difference in your positions? The fact remains that even though there are some portions of the two accounts that appear similar, that is not evidence that the Jesus account never happened. That is the conclusion you attempted to make at the begininng.
Do you agree that in both stories we find a sleeping sailor who is scolded by his shipmates for his lack of concern for his safety?
I do not agree as you have it worded. Jesus was not a sailor on the boat, for that matter neither was Jonah ( he was a passenger). Jonah was scolded for not caring about his safety, the disciples questioned Jesus' apparent lack of concern for their safety.
Do you agree that in both stories, after being awakened, the sea is calmed?
No. The sea was calmed after Jonah was thrown overboard, the sea was calmed after Jesus told the winds to die.
Do you agree that after the sea is calmed, rather than feel a sense of closeness to the divine one whose power saved them, they feel fear instead?
Partially. The sailors on Jonah's boat were non believers in God so they were afraid of him . The discipes were questionng who Jesus was becasue the winds obeyed him. Fear yeas, but for different reasons.
Do you agree that you know of no other stories since the beginning of time--beside the Jonah and Jesus ones--that have all of these very unique elements?
I haven't studied mythology or other historical accounts of events to the point that I can say that no other event has ever been recorded that had theses same similarities.
I have book marked the website you gave me and I will be studying it. However, my question to you was more specific. What scholars have made the same conclusion that you did that this Jesus account was a made up copy of the Jonah account?
As for Mark, I will correct myself to the extent that I implied that Mark was an eyewitness to this account. He was a disciple of Peter and Paul who learned of Jesus through Peter the eyewitness. He followed Peter and Paul on their missionary trips. According to the church historian Eusebius, Mark was the founder of the church in Alexandria in Egypt and its first bishop who died a martyr's death there.
The first verse indicates that what he is writing is true : The beginning of the gospel about Jeus Christ, the Son of God. (1:1).
I'm 38. Why?
-
tyydyy
Hey Joseph,
I think there is another conincidental similarity you missed.
In the Jonah story: God killed the Bottle Gourd plant instantly.
In the Jesus story: Jesus killed a tree instantly.
Hmmmmmm Coincidence?
TimB
-
JosephAlward
RWC asks,
What scholars have made the same conclusion that you did that this Jesus account was a made up copy of the Jonah account?
Why don’t you join the Kata Markon discussion forum I described yesterday--the one for professors and graduates students who specialize in the Gospel of Mark, and just ask the question, “Do forum members generally believe it’s true that the majority of university Biblical scholars believe that some of Mark’s gospel stories are based on scriptural or other antecedents, and are fictional?”It would be better if you obtained the answer directly from them, don’t you think? Don’t be shy about explaining that you’re a true believer but have difficulty accepting that the gospel stories are literally true; there are some very religious members of that forum who will deal with you much more sensitively than I have. Unless you’re afraid of what you will hear, you will do it.
--------------------------------------------------------Paul...learned of Jesus through Peter the eyewitness
RWC believes that Peter told Paul about Jesus, and then Paul told Mark, but I suspect that he’s just repeating what he was told was true by other true-believers who believed what they were told, too, but none of them had ever come to any independent conclusions through their own research. One gets the impression that RWC has never read the Pauline letters, for if he had he would know what G.A. Wells, in his book The Historical Evidence for Jesus [pp. 22-23], knows:The...Pauline letters...are so completely silent concerning the events that were later recorded in the gospels as to suggest that these events were not known to Paul, who, however, could not have been ignorant of them if they had really occurred.
RWC, how could Mark have learned his gospel stories from Paul if Paul didn’t know them? If you believe--contrary to the evidence--that Paul did know about the events in Jesus’ life that would later be put in Mark’s gospel, exactly why do you believe this? Is it on faith alone, or because someone you trust told you so?These letters have no allusion to the parents of Jesus, let alone to the virgin birth. They never refer to a place of birth (for example, by calling him 'of Nazareth'). They give no indication of the time or place of his earthly existence. They do not refer to his trial before a Roman official, nor to Jerusalem as the place of execution. They mention neither John the Baptist, nor Judas, nor Peter's denial of his master. (They do, of course, mention Peter, but do not imply that he, any more than Paul himself, had known Jesus while he had been alive.)
These letters also fail to mention any miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, a particularly striking omission, since, according to the gospels, he worked so many...
Another striking feature of Paul's letters is that one could never gather from them that Jesus had been an ethical teacher... on only one occasion does he appeal to the authority of Jesus to support an ethical teaching which the gospels also represent Jesus as having delivered.
-------------------
RWC, I asked how old you were because just as a triage officer will sort injured people into groups based on their likely benefit from immediate medical treatment, I'm trying to judge by your age whether you will ever be able to understand what I and the other skeptics on this list are trying to show you. Most folks in your position are born into fundamentalism, but escape from it is nevertheless fairly common up to about the age of 25 or so; beyond that, there’s little hope. You’re 38, so it’s likely you will hold your beliefs until you die; it’s ironic that you will take great consolation in this.Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible" -
JosephAlward
Change the previous post to: "but have difficulty accepting that the gospel stories are NOT literally true"
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible" -
cellomould
Hey Tim,
Nice thoughts.
Why would Jesus curse a tree anyhow? Sounds like someone can't restrain his divine anger? Imagine if this were a person instead of a tree. Watch out!
It makes more sense that this was a borrowed concept, indeed.
Interesting that someone else is thinking about the bottle-gourd plant. That is such an overlooked section of Jonah, but I think it's the most important part of the parable.
cellomould
"In other words, your God is the warden of a prison where the only prisoner is your God." Jose Saramago, The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
-
RWC
Joseph,
I hope you dod not misread my post on purpose. I said that Mark learned about Jesus from PETER. I did not say he learned about Jesus from Paul, although he was a disciple of Paul.
As for my age, your assumption that I am set in my beliefs due to growing up in a certain religion and therefore will not change is misplaced. My exact history is that I was raised in a protestant religion, fell away from all religion, and now have become a Roman Catholic as an adult in the past several years by my own choice. Actually in in direct contradiction to my upbringing and my family who are stout Southern Baptists ( even ministers).
So far, you and the other skeptics have not shown me anything to question my faith. I enjoy the debate, but the more I engage in it the more convinced I am that my faith is true. I should ask you your age, because I am trying to convince you that God exists, that he loves you and that He sent his son to save you from your sins so you can enjoy eternal life.
