by Sargon 40 Replies latest watchtower bible
Nemesis
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/versions/1015392330.html#9
And a bit more detail of the verse with the Hebrew text:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1015392467.html#9
Ok I tried these links and all I get is "Page can't be found"
Do you have a home page address for this site maybe I can cut and past that?
plmkrzy
Earnest:
I believe the NWT Translation Committee stated that they were trying to achieve consistant renderings of words.
Interpretation is for commentaries and interpretive translations.
I stand by my comment:
The NWT is supposed to be a literal version, not an interpretive one.
FYI I agree with the understanding, here rendered, but see it as further evidence of the Committee not living up to it's self-imposed mandate. This is just one, of many, places where an interpretive bias has been placed on the text.
Further, you refer to the Septuagint. Are we now to consider this to be stronger evidence that the original Hebrew, going with an interpretation of an interpretation?
You wont find "in opposition" in Strongs. Against, maybe.
Strongs:
6440 paniym paw-neem'
plural (but always as singular) of an unused noun (paneh paw-neh'; from 6437);
the face (as the part that turns);
used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively);
also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.):--+ accept, a-(be- )fore(-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront(-part), form(-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him(-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look(-eth) (- s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, propect, was purposed, by reason of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them(-selves), through (+ - out), till, time(-s) past, (un-)to(-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with(- in, + -stand), X ye, X you.
6437 panah paw-naw'
a primitive root;
to turn;
by implication, to face, i.e. appear, look, etc.:--appear, at (even-)tide, behold, cast out, come on, X corner, dawning, empty, go away, lie, look, mark, pass away, prepare, regard, (have) respect (to), (re-)turn (aside, away, back, face, self), X right (early).
every language has them...
Hit the road
cut the air with a knife
stink to high heaven
get the lead out
break a leg
Take them out of context, create a fantastic story and viola new rules for another religion.
How is it possible that a man, a hunter, who killed, possibly humans would not be in opposition to Jehovah? The completeness of the translation is made more sure, even by the prophetic word. Nimrod, that great man of old, evidently was in opposition to the Lord hinself. Do you doubt that?
Gozz,
I do not doubt that Nimrod was in opposition to your Jehovah, your NWT bears this out. The question is, is he in opposition to the Hebrew god Yahweh, as the scriptures don't appear to bear this out.
As far as a hunter of men being in opposition to God is a debatable point. King David could be called a hunter of men. He not only killed them, he went on to desecrate their bodies by removing their foreskins. I guess this was pleasing to Jehovah.
Imagination is more important than Knowledge. Albert Einstein
Sargon,
you here again compare incomparables; like apples, and peas. Do you doubt that those men upon whom David, that valiant warrior and king, executed the expression divine anger and punishment are deserving of the death that they met? We do not doubt the sanctity of life, but must maintain that the sustenance of that very life must cease once the giver of that life says so. The logic is beyond the human, beyond these earthly shores, for, apostates, and those reasoning like them will now quickly point to the existing systems and trends in this decaying world, namely, the preservation of human life, as expressed in the willingness of the nations to banish the death penalty. No, we make no argumentations about such, except that the 'logic' of death imposed by the judges and kings in the holy book were at the instance of Yahweh, who has the power to bring back to life the dead.
What is this about the difference between Jehovah and Yahweh? Do you not agree that they are but names, expressions resulting from attempt by humans to define the indefinable, through a perversion of naming things heavenly? You make a good point by refering, strictly, to Yahweh as being first revealed as the God of the Jews, those priviledged amongst the race of men. But that is simply a nucleus, the beginning of the widening of a greater revelation. You are probably on the path.
If men are to be hunted, they must be so at the order of some higher authority. Do you not take a cue form the nations of the world, who have themselves enacting laws prohibiting the hunting f even animals in certain areas. Is this too wonderful to understand? Can you imagine this? Our knowledge must be limited, there is some logic at play not understood by human brains, but as attested to, even by that one great man, whom you graciously quote, imagination, even on this earthly plane, is more important than knowledge.
The question is, is he in opposition to the Hebrew god Yahweh,
What other God would this context be speaking of? Of course it was Yahweh.
Puzzled:
Nemesis... Ok I tried these links and all I get is "Page can't be found"
Do you have a home page address for this site maybe I can cut and past that?
plmkrzy
Sorry they have gone inactive, they [I]did[/] work for at least a day when I posted them, they must have been temp files only. And the post is too old now and won’t let me edit it.
Anyhow—there is an easy remedy, just go the this page, and click on the ‘V’ next to the scripture you want, and you will get more translation versions, or click on the ‘C’ for the Hebrew/Greek concordance. You can then go deeper if you want more info on specific words therein. The Genesis one below:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen010.html#9
And the Job one also:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Job/Job042.html#11
Their home page:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The question Gumby is, is he in opposition? not to what god he is in opposition to. I didn't mean to muddy this water.
Gozz, I don't personally find David to be any more valiant, noble or divinely inspired than Nimrod. I dont beleive that Babylonian, Philistine or Edomite warriors are any more deserving of death than Hebrew warriors.
Not all apostates are opposed to the death penalty being applied as you seem to be implying. In fact in my case I would be more than willing to pull the plug on those deserving of this fate, but thats a totally different argument.
My using of the names Jehovah and Yahweh in my last post was to distinguish between the NWT version of the scripture in question, and the hebrew version. I'm not attempting to start an argument about names. Feel free to call your god whatever you like.
As far as me being an a path, you are correct. I'm on the highway to hell, and I aint turning back.
You said "if men are to be hunted, they must be so at the order of some higher authority". One thing to say to that...Heil Hitler...we were just obeying orders. Or is that Heil Jehovah?
Imagination is more important than Knowledge. Albert Einstein
LittleToe,
I feel slightly uneasy in pursuing this discussion as I'm mindful of Paul's words to Timothy "not to fight about words". All I really want to say is that I don't agree this was simply a matter of interpretation. As I understand it, the Hebrew preposition has a number of different meanings depending on the context and it is so translated in the NWT. Consider the context of the following verses which all use the same Hebrew word as Genesis 10:9 :
"...he took five men, that he might present them to Pharaoh." - Genesis 47:2
"...'Jehovah your God caused it [some game(animal)] to meet up with me.'" - Genesis 27:20
"'Is not the whole land available to you?...'" - Genesis 13:9
"When David heard of it, then he went out against them." - 1 Chronicles 14:8
Genesis 27:20 is particularly interesting but each verse uses a different meaning of the word. The problem is that there is no equivalent English word with all the permutations of the Hebrew and in such a case the appropriate word in context should be used. In the NWT it is.
You query whether I am considering the LXX to be stronger evidence that the original Hebrew, "going with an interpretation of an interpretation"?
I believe the LXX to be particularly helpful when there is some doubt as to the meaning of the Hebrew. It was translated just prior to the time of Christ and was used and quoted by the early Christians. There are even instances where they held it in higher esteem than the Hebrew e.g. the use of Isaiah 7:14 which the LXX translates as "virgin". Furthermore, some of the oldest manuscripts of the OT (apart from the Dead Sea Scrolls) are the LXX translation and I believe some weight should be given to that.
Earnest
"Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson.
