There are Christians on this forum?
~Binadub
This topic is for Christians......
by Phizzy 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Phizzy
That is the problem Ucant, we do not know much, and nothing we can be 100% sure of about Jesus, but I believe that a certain charismatic young man by that name had a huge effect upon many of his genertion because of his attitude, which threatened the status quo, as had other original thinkers before him, I think of Diogenes and his proto-hippie ideas which shocked his world.
I think and hope that some of his original teachings/thoughts do come through the miasma that is the Gospel and deutero-canonical accounts.
That is why I ask "Christians" to consider their position, if their faith is based on the propaganda style writings that appeared a few decades after his death, the Gospels etc and they feel it is most important to listen to the leadings of those, rather than the genuine voice of Jesus, which seems to be there in snatches in the texts, they are being led by men, men very similar to today's GB of JW's but hailing from the late first and early second century.
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Ucantnome
nothing we can be 100% sure of about Jesus.
rather than the genuine voice of Jesus, which seems to be there in snatches in the texts
Phizzy this doesnt sound good.
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Heaven
If Jesus' work was so ultimately important to all mankind, why didn't HE write it down?
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Chariklo
Sabastious
Yes, that's why I study and practice religions that I believe Jesus was studied up on like Confucianism and Buddhism.
On what do you base that statement? In what sense do you see Jesus as having been "studied up" on Confucianism and Buddhism?
Where in his life do you see him as having been in contact with Confucian thinking, bearing in mind that it existed in China?
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sabastious
On what do you base that statement? In what sense do you see Jesus as having been "studied up" on Confucianism and Buddhism?
Where in his life do you see him as having been in contact with Confucian thinking, bearing in mind that it existed in China?
The Torah and the I CHING are interlinked pieces of religious literature, but that link is not well known and it's not well understood by the people who do know. The I CHING was studied as well as used as a divination system by Confucius. To me it's not a stretch to say that Jesus was aware of the I CHING and the ideas that it has. If we had an accurate historical record of him I would lean towards that for information, but since the NT is becoming more questionable the more I research it I have to rely on theories coupled with what was written down.
The fact is that you and I have no idea who Jesus was. The stories that were written down of him are not something you can set your watch too. However, this doesn't mean that the message of the real man cannot be deduced with the writings of the NT, they will just be hidden. Luckily, there have been many scholars that have taken this approach to the writings. If you swallow all the writings as bona fide history you might as well just join a Christian denomination and ask them questions instead of searching for yourself. Instead, I look at all of their doctrine and call that a Denomination Layer and then use it to find truth about the man called Jesus of Nazarene.
Because the NT shows quotes from Jesus that are highly Buddhist I must conclude that either the document is a plagerized version of the teachings of Buddah or that the man depicted in the writings was studied up in Buddhism. Before Jesus there was BUDDAH and he was teaching very similar things. My faith is that Jesus came to the planet and used all available religions to help humanity with the truth about their existence. That's why I believe we see teachings of Jesus that are so highly reminiscent of the teachings of the Buddah. Now if Jesus studied up on Buddhism he also would be studied up on Confucianism too. Here are some of the teachings:
- Li - Rituals, Properities, Etiqette
- Hsiao - Love within the family
- Yi - Righteousness
- Xin - Honesty and Trustworthiness
- Jen - Benvolence, Humanness toward others
- Chung - Loyalty to the State
Here are some teachings of the Buddah:
Four Noble Truths
- Life involves suffering
- Suffering orginates in desires for transient things.
- Suffering can be ceased by the termination of desires.
- The path to liberation from desires is the eight fold path.
When I compare all this with the teachings of Jesus, as compiled by my own research, I see incredible similarities and therefore conclude that Jesus was here truly to unite the world. He taught universalism, which you will not be able to conclude until connecting his NT self with the eastern part of the world. What better way to unite the world than to teach a conglomerate of the good from all religions? The NT is anti-semitism for the most part, but it contains the truth about Christ regardless, it just takes deep study which is what God wants for his people. He wants us to dig in the dirt and find the truth, that's what life is about and we get the satisfaction of accomplishment.
So, the "Where in his life do you see him as having been in contact with Confucian thinking" is unanswerable by conventional means. But everything about God has always been unconventional and so should the truth about Christ. I just wrote a post about the movie Prometheus that speaks about how the message of that movie is that "God doesn't build in straight lines." I really believe that and how the truth about the universe being contained in errant literature across all cultures and times is part of that jagged line of truth.
-Sab
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Band on the Run
I disagree with the statement that Jesus' immediate apostles and disciples took on his faith. First, we know little of Jesus' interior life. There is heated academic debate as to whether he even had a messianic consciousness. If he knew he were God, what does the crucifixion mean? Jesus appears to have normal Jewish faith. Many Jewish thinkers wrote similar themes. His message is unclear.
Besides Jesus, you have the apostle problem. Not until the post-Resurrection appearances and Pentecost do they appear to have a clue as to what Jesus meant. They were chosen for no particular knowledge or training. Indeed, Jesus purposefully sought out illiterate fishermen. Matthew was probably an exception. Throughout his ministry, they fail to understand. As late as the Garden of Gethsame, they are clueless. Would you sleep when God asked you to stay up with Him?
There a few references to some quasiMessianic figure.
My hunch is that they followed Jesus b/c of his personal charisma. If Jesus' mission was so clear and defined at the time, one would assume that all of John the Baptist's disciples would have followed Jesus after John's execution rather than a few. There appears to be ongoing dialouge between the Jesus and John camps.
We are so used to Church teaching and tradition that it is very hard to place ourselves as contemporaries of Jesus.
How does one define who is a Christian?
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Phizzy
I think Jesus' faith was that his teachings were true, that added to his charisma, "never has aman spoken like this", he did not quote earlier Jewish teachers as authority, though he used much of their wisdom , he was convinced that his message to the common man was "The Way The Truth and The Life", he was prepard to die for that.
His immediate disciples too must have been convinced of the truth of his message, for they were prepared to die for it, and many did.
But, we have no proof,that we can rely on, as dear Band says above, that he claimed divinity for himself. Paul after his strange experience on the road to Damascus started the move toward a Jesus cult that would make such claims about him, but his messiahship was Paul's main concern, not debate about his "substance" or whatever, but Pauls christology too comes from what he gleaned from the followers after they had begun to rationalise the sudden demise of their hero.
Jewish thought and teaching had for centuries, since the exile, been influenced by Eastern thought, as well as Greek learning, so as Sab points out above, Jesus must have been aware of these teachings, even if not perhaps aware that the rabbinical thoughts he studied came from outside of his nation.