by jgnat 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
Christ made a fundamental error in prophecy. He sent out his followers to preach the message and told them to expect persecution. They did not.
After this failure, Jesus tried to force a conclusion by offering up himself as a sacrifice.
This is speculation.
JGNAT SAID:
I was recently challenged by someone who sincerely believed they were speaking for Christ. If Christ spoke dire warnings to those who would not follow him, can't his mouthpiece do the same today?
There are so many assumptions tied along that road I barely know how to start. My awakening began as many of those base assumptions have been demolished. I can no longer hang my life on a bible verse.
Is it reasonable or even likely that all revelation ended 2,000 years ago? If so, that's severe divine neglect.
Christ made a fundamental error in prophecy. He sent out his followers to preach the message and told them to expect persecution. They did not.
After this failure, Jesus tried to force a conclusion by offering up himself as a sacrifice. His prophecy was buillt in the context of his culture and his time.
His prophecies have no currency.
Assumptions demolished, new foundation.
We have had great thinkers since Christ.
We are released from fear of imminent doom, expectation of persecution, and the division of the world between damned and angels.
There you go. This is where thinking has got me.
My Response:
Many things revealed in the Bible have already occured, and yet many more things revealed in the Bible are yet waiting to occur. Since we are STILL in the process of going through these Bible revelations there is no need for more at this time, since we are still working through these current ones. Once these things come near their finish, then further revelation WILL occur when the End Times happen (Daniel 8:15-19; Daniel 12:4,9-10; Acts 2:17-21 ).
Therefore, revelation did not END 2,000 years ago, as I believe the Scriptures say that more revelation is to come when the time is appropriate.
Christ's followers did not experience persecution? Really?
Let's look at this:
Matthew 14:1-11 -- John the Baptist was imprisoned, and eventually killed for speaking the truth.
Acts 5:17-21 -- Some unnamed Apostles were imprisoned for preaching the Gospel.
Acts 8:3 -- Saul was dragging all Christians out of their homes and imprisoning them.
Acts 12:1-2 -- James was killed by the sword for the Gospel.
Acts 12:3-5 -- The Apostle Peter was imprisoned for preaching the Gospel.
Acts 16:19-24 -- The Apostle Paul, and Silas, were falsly accused, beaten, and imprisoned. In fact, Paul never got out of prison as far as I know.
Jesus didn't "force" ANYTHING. According to Scripture, His primary reason for being on Earth was for the sacrifice, and several hundred prophecies prove this.(I can give Scriptural proof on this if you wish)
Unfortunately, you are listening to a person who is NOT listening to the Bible.
I worried for some time about the conflict between where reason was taking me, and where my heart soars. Now I allow both full rein.
It's a good place to be, is it not?
As this thread is referring to me, please allow me to, respectively, clear up some misunderstandings:
I was recently challenged by someone who sincerely believed they were speaking for Christ.
Speaking FOR Christ... no.
Sharing something Christ taught me... yes. My choice.
You challenged me though, did you not? Not saying there is anything wrong with that. I asked you some questions back, regarding your challenge to me, because I genuinely did not understand your challenge. I still do not.
If Christ spoke dire warnings to those who would not follow him, can't his mouthpiece do the same today?
a) I am not his mouthpiece.
If I share something that ANYONE taught me... does that make me their mouthpiece?
b) You perceive a warning in what I shared... but I did not post as a warning, or threat, or even think any such thing.
There are so many assumptions tied along that road I barely know how to start. My awakening began as many of those base assumptions have been demolished. I can no longer hang my life on a bible verse
I also could not hang my life on a bible verse... never have before, and I see no reason to start.
Is it reasonable or even likely that all revelation ended 2,000 years ago? If so, that's severe divine neglect.
I would have to say that it is completely UNreasonable to think that revelation ended 2000 years ago. The Spirit is alive, and teaches and speaks to this day. He did not leave anyone as orphans... as he promised.
Christ made a fundamental error in prophecy. He sent out his followers to preach the message and told them to expect persecution. They did not.
I have to agree with BTS that this is speculation.
Plus, the timing shown between the parallel verse in Luke is slightly different than that in Matthew... in Luke, he is more clear that Christ had first been asked about times of the end, and then He speaks about the persecution. He protected them while he was with them from that. The terrible persecution He spoke of DID break out after his death and resurrection.
I was going to try and discuss the rest, but am thinking that perhaps I am now misunderstanding you. May I ask then, do you think that Christ was false in his prophecies... or is that the assumption that you have demolished?
Peace to you,
tammy
1900 years God has remained silent. Compare this to the intervals between the portions of the scriptures. Where are the prophets? Where is God's word?
Nolaw, no misunderstanding there.
Botchtowersociety, speculation, yes. A convincing argument from someone I admire (Schweitzer), yes.
JWOP, all your examples, other than John the Baptist, are from the book of Acts, AFTER the crucifixion. Jesus did not prophesy John the Baptist's death. I am convinced by Schweitzer's argument , who DID conduct a thorough study. Your comments on further revelation is simply dogma.
twitch, thumbs up
tec: The Spirit is alive, and teaches and speaks to this day.
Do you think the Spirit has divinely inspired any modern writers?
tec, IMO it disingenuous for you to now claim that sharing that you heard from the Lord, is different than being a mouthpiece for him. You had also protested that your message was not "cobbled together" from bible verses. I was not suggesting that you had done the cobbling, but the message definitely is.
The message is threatening to anyone who has not chosen the Narrow Way. This would include Athiests, Agnostics, Rationalists, Muslims, Hindus, traditional Aborigine elders....
tec, so many assumptions I had built my belief system have been demolished, where do I start? I have concluded that Jesus was flawed and was capable of error.
BTW, before you take this all too personally, this thread is mostly about me and the peculiar journey that led me to where I am today.
jgnat sez,
BTW, before you take this all too personally, this thread is mostly about me and the peculiar journey that led me to where I am today.
jgnat, you should know by now that we will never allow you to have your own journey. You are BORG. You will be assimilated!
Dogz
I'm finding your journey very interesting jgnat...by the way, I watched the video you linked on tecs thread...and enjoyed it..thanks...
Of course most of the examples are from the book of Acts....that's when the Christian congregation began to take root. And those of the congregation were Christ's followers (ergo, the name "Christian"), and they were persecuted, just as Jesus said they would be.
They were persecuted but most of the time Roman looked the other way. There was never such widespread and blanket persecution that the Church has claimed. Judaism was respected, for the most part, by the Romans. They were allowed to worship openly. Gentiles, including several Roman Emperors, arranged for sacrifices on their behalf. Most pagan religions offered practical gods. Judaism offered a more sophsiticated blend. Rome had no toleration for political threats, though.
There are eyewitness contemporary accounts of the martyrdoms. They are so moving.
Christians were targeted b/c they were a new group without much political power. The Church made nonbaptized members leave the premises before Holy Communion. This practice and the talk of "brother and sister" led nonbelievers to conclude that incest orgies and cannibalism was taking place. "This is my body. This is my blood" sounds very sinister if you don't know the Jesus stories.
Almost all martyrdoms happened when the Romans needed a large spectacle to entertain the locals during times of crisis. The martyrdoms distracted the populace.
