Is this valid reasoning for Trinitarian Doctrine?

by Flat_Accent 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Flat_Accent

  I had been watching JWFairytale's videos recently, and he's been including snippets of this short film about a guy that becomes a JW and then changes to a born again, or so I think. You can watch it here. It's VERY dated, but quite enjoyable:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U00UpCAwM4E

  Anyway, about 17 minutes in they start talking about the Trinity. The reasoning goes as follows;

  Revelation 1

  8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

  - Who is this? Does the Almighty refer to himself as the 'Alpha and Omega'?

  Revelation 22

  12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

  14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

  16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

  - Who speaks in verse 13? Is it Jehovah? So does the Alpha and Omega also refer to himself as 'The First and the Last'?

  Revelation 1

  17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

  It kinda made sense to me. Do you guys buy into this? Still a non-believer by the way, and I've not researched this to any depth, but I'm wondering now if the New Testament does claim Jesus was/is God.
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  Emery

  I have never given much thought to these scriptures within that context but it certainly appears like a great argument for the Trinity. I have always kept in mind that Jesus was elevated to the position of King and the book of Revelation normally falls within that understanding.

  I don't believe in the Trinity based on the Hebrew scriptures regarding the messiah and also based on the synoptic Gospels. Many of the scriptures used in support of the Trinity use the controversial gospel of John which was written about 20-30 years after the synoptics. Most the scritpures used as proof texts appear very ambigious and are not definitive. After reading many books by Bart Ehrman and other textual critics you can see where the orthodox belief developed in hindsight 2-3 centuries later. Yet I dont see the doctrine to be a salvation issue as preached throughout the NT. Regardless if you're a Unitarian or Trinitarian you can still be a spiritual christian person. I like to refer to Paul's words found in 1 Cor. 13: 9-12

  "For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in the mirror, dimly, but then we will see face-to-face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known."
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  trebor

  http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2009/07/alpha-and-omega.html
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  Indian Larry

  What about Isa. 45:6?
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  sir82

  The concept of Jesus' divinity / being part of a trinity evolved (how's that for irony) in the decades following Jesus' death. Revelation was the last, or nearly last, book written in the NT canon, so it's not surprising the idea is more pronounced there.

  Most NT "proof texts" for the trinity come from John's gospel and the book of Revelation, later writings.

  Most NT "proof texts" against the trinity come from earlier Gospel writings and some of Paul's letters, earlier writings.

  Just as a side note, if beleiving the "right way" about the trinity were so god-a-mighty important, you'd think the idea would be clearly presented, rather than being so vague & muddled that it would spark a (literal) 2000 year debate about the subject.
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  Sulla

  Of course it makes sense, the Church has always been convinced in the divinity of Jesus. It is generally a mistake to think there should exist proof texts. But it is quite obvious that the Early Church Fathers held the view that Jeus was God.
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  leavingwt

  I see no reason why this thread cannot reach 10 pages by tomorrow.
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  glenster

  What I have on that is on pp.6b-10 of "...GTJ Brooklyn" at the next links.
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn6b.htm
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn7.htm
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn8.htm
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn9.htm
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn10.htm
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  botchtowersociety

  Lulz. Should be a good one, LeavingWT.
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  Bobcat

  Flat_Accent:

  In connection with Revelation 1:8 and 22:12, I thought you might find these comments from the Baker Exegetical Commentary on Revelation. (The author is Grant R. Osborne) This is an academic commentary on Revelation, rather extensive, about <900 pages.

  Revelation 1:8

  "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

  In the text on page 71:"Of the three uses of the title in Revelation, two refer to God (1:8; 21:6) and one to Christ (22:13; though see 1:17, where Jesus is "the first and the last") From the start the unity of the Father and the Son is stressed. Here God is "the Alpha and Omega" and Jesus is "the first and the last." (1:17). In 21:6 God is "Alpha and Omega" and in 22:13 Jesus is "Alpha and Omega (see Bauckham 1993a: 54-58).

  There is a footnote concerning 1:8 on page 71 that says: "While some (Walvoord 1996:40; perhaps Caird 1996:19) have argued that this is Christ rather than the Father (due to the centrality of Christ in the context), the use of OT designations for God ("LORD God of Hosts" was a favorite OT title) and the repetition of the title for God in v.4 make it more likely this refers to God the Father."

  In connection with "Lord God" in 1:8: "It should be connected with "I am" ["who is" in 1:8] to stress God as the Yahweh of the OT."

  Revelation 22:12

  "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

  Under the sub-title "Identity of the One Coming (22:13) on pages 788-9 it says: "This is the last of the [the Alpha and the Omega] passages, and fittingly all three types of this saying are found here (the only place in [Revelation] where this occurs). Moreover, this completes the attribution of the titles to God and Christ in a kind of ABAB order: in 1:8 it refers to God ("Alpha and Omega"), and in 1:17 and 2:8 it applies to Christ ("the First and the Last"). Then in 21:6 it refers to God ("Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End") and in 22:13 to Christ ("Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End"). The titles refer to the sovereignty of God and Christ over history. They control the beginning of creation and its end, and therefore they control every aspect of history in between. Since this is the only passage to contain all three titles, it has the greatest emphasis of them all on the all-embracing power of Christ over human history. These are the perfect titles to occur between the emphasis on Christ's coming as judge in 22:12 and the warnings to the believers and the unregenerate in 22:14-15. Christ is sovereign over all and therefore the one who has authority over the destiny of everyone."

  Concerning both these particular verses, there are no debates about the validity/reading of the Greek text.

  As you can see, this expositor has no problem applying the title to both God and Christ. Hope this is some use.

  Take Care