Does egyptian history conflict with bible history

by ninja_matty69 46 Replies latest members adult

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Finkelstein....Parallels between Egyptian mythology and the narratives of Jesus are mainly found in only the most general tropes, such as the infant threatened by an evil adversary (which pertains to Horus Harpocrates and Seth) and a dying-rising theme (which pertains to Osiris). These are really vague parallels and the narrative details are very different. Claims of more specific similarities (such as what is commonly found on the internet, e.g. Horus had twelve disciples, Horus was known as the Good Shepherd, Horus was crucified, etc.) are usually bogus. There is however a tangible connection with Egyptian mythology in the material in ch. 12 of Revelation and the 13Kingdoms section of the Apocalypse of Adam; this reflects the greater mythological bent in visionary material (cf. the extensive links with Canaanite and Babylonian traditions in the vision in Daniel 7). There is also probably direct influence in later Christian symbolism and iconography, which is subsequent to the early narrative traditions. The gospel stories about Jesus instead largely draw on Jewish narrative traditions, particularly those found in the OT. It is native Jewish tradition, not foreign influence, that had the biggest impact on the narratives; that is clearly where the impressive parallels in both detail and theme lie — intertextuality with OT as well as parabiblical texts. The Matthean birth narrative, which sharing some very broad similarities in theme with ch. 12 of Revelation and the Harpocrates myth, is entirely constructed out of OT and haggadaic traditions pertaining to Moses; this reflects the author's purpose in portraying Jesus as the successor of Moses as an interpreter of the Torah. The connection with Egypt in the story explains the use of tropes that resonate with the Horus myth. The Lukan birth narrative has no such interest in either Moses or Egypt; the story thus lacks all the features drawn from the OT and haggada pertaining to Moses, and it lacks any infant-in-peril theme motivated by the OT story of Moses' birth (which in turn resonates with the Harpocrates myth). The temptation in the wilderness story draws largely on OT traditions about Israel being tempted in the wilderness. The miracle stories draw on OT stories about Elijah and Elisha (as well as pagan narrative motifs about miracle workers). The passion narrative is heavily based on a wide variety of OT material (such as laws in the Torah about sacrifice, traditions in the Deuteronomistic History and Psalms about King David, the Suffering Servant of Deutero-Isaiah, etc.). The evidence for influence from the OT far outweighs by an order of magnitude the claimed influence from Egyptian mythology. Rather than construing Jesus as simply a Jewish version of Horus (which exaggerates the relation with pagan mythology), the picture is instead closer to that of a fictionalized narrative of a person (whether historical or not) that echoes some narrative tropes available in the culture.

    The claimed parallel of rising on the third day is interesting. But imo there was already a "third day" motif in Hebrew tradition with respect to the window of time after a person dies (Testament of Abraham 20:10-14, Yebamot 16:3, Midrash Rabbah on Job 14:22, Midrash Rabbah on Ruth 3:3, Semahot 8:1), including revivication (Hosea 6:2, cf. possibly Hazon Gabriel, line 80, tho this is doubtful); cf. also a "third day" motif in Canaanite literature regarding the summoning of the spirits from the underworld (KTU 1.20 I 1-3, II 7-9).

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Yeah, I was gunna say what Leo did, but i see she beat me to it... ;)

    Leo, what is your opinion on the significance of the 3 wise magi, which is easily overlooked by most Xians? I always took it as an indirect indorsement from Zoroastrianism, ie something familiar to many readers of the day, even an attempt at syncretism?

    PS what is the source of your knowledge, ie who's Holy Spirit whispered this stuff in your ear? :)

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Interesting Leolaia thanks for input

    You obviously have sizable amount of knowledge in regards to ancient middle Eastern theology, whats your opinion

    concerning the possible plagiarism probabilities derived from these ancient civilizations as they existed, interrelated and formed

    seemly close to one another ?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Leo, what is your opinion on the significance of the 3 wise magi, which is easily overlooked by most Xians? I always took it as an indirect indorsement from Zoroastrianism, ie something familiar to many readers of the day, even an attempt at syncretism?

    Let me repost what I wrote earlier about this....it fits in with the author's overall interest in Jesus as a successor to Moses.

    What is interesting about the Magi is that they constitute one out of many links between the Matthean story of the birth of Jesus and OT/haggadaic stories about the birth of Moses. Herod in the gospel narrative takes the place of Pharaoh, and Pharaoh's advisors were identified in midrash as Magi (cf. Philo of Alexandria, Vita Mosis 1.92; b. Sanhedrin 101a; Midrash Rabbah 1.9), and one of these Magi was Balaam son of Beor (cf. Eusebius, Supplementa Quaestionum ad Stephanum; b. Sotah 11a; Sefer Zikhronot 44.9; cf. Diodore of Tarsus on Balaam as an astrologer), who was thought to be the ancestor of all the later Magi (cf. Origen, Homilies on Numbers 13.7; Eusebius, Supplementa Quaestionum ad Stephanum), and whose servants or sons were two other magicians of Pharaoh, Jannes and Jambres (cf. Targum Pseudo-Jonathan Exodus 1:15-16 & Numbers 22:22, Sefer Zikhronot, 45.2, 47.6). The connection with Balaam is fascinating because not only do the Magi bless Jesus in a similar way that Balaam blesses Israel, but Balaam's own blessing prophesied a star and sceptre rising in Israel (Numbers 24:17). This was a popular messianic proof-text of the era (cf. Damascus Document 7:18-26, Testament of Levi 18:3, Josephus, Bellum Judaicum 6.312, and cf. Rabbi Aqiva's naming of Simon bar-Kochba as the messiah) and it also provided the exegetical basis of the star in Matthew's birth narrative (cf. Justin Martyr, Dialogue 106, Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 3.9.3, Origen, Contra Celsum 1.60).

    In the various related traditions about the birth of Moses, (1) Pharaoh receives a disturbing omen in a dream (cf. Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Exodus 1:15, Midrash ha-Gadol on Exodus 1:22, Sefer Zikhronot, 43.1), (2) Pharaoh's advisors/magicians/Magi interpret the dream and inform him that an Israelite boy would soon be born who would overthrow the power of Egypt (cf. Josephus, Antiquities 2.205, Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Exodus 1:15, Pirqei R. Eliezer 48, Exodus Rabbah 1.18, Sefer Zikhronot, 43.2), (3) Pharaoh panics and orders all male infants to be put to death and a massacre of Israelite children ensues (cf. Exodus 1:16, Philo, Vita Mosis 1:8, Josephus, Antiquities 2.206, Pseudo-Philo 9:1, Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1.23.2, Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Exodus 1:16, Pirqei R. Eliezer 48, Exodus Rabbah 1.18, Sefer Zikhronot, 43.2-3), (4) Moses' parents Amram and Jochebed, along with other Israelite couples, divorce each other so they would not contribute to the massacre (cf. Pseudo-Philo 9:2, Sotah 12a, Midrash ha-Gadol on Deuteronomy 26:7, Baba Batra 60b, Sefer Zikhronot, 44.1), in some versions of the story Jochebed was already pregnant with Moses when Amram divorced her (cf. Sotah 12a, Sekel Tob 2:2), (5) Amram despairs on account of the divorce but he receives a dream vision in which he is told that Jochebed was to give birth to the future deliverer of the Israelites (cf. 4QVision of Amram, Josephus, Antiquities 2.212-215), in some versions of the story it is Miriam that receives the annunciation dream vision or prophecy (cf. Pseudo-Philo 9:10, Megillah 14a, Sotah 12a, Midrash ha-Gadol on Exodus 2:1, Sefer Zikhronot, 43.2), (6) Amram remarries Jochebed privately and in some versions Jochebed was already three months pregnant when Amram took her back (Pseudo-Philo 9:9, Mekhilta de-Rabbi Shimon b. Yohai, Sanya 2.4; Sefer Zikhronot, 44.2), and (7) Jochebed gives birth to Moses, and in some versions of the story the magicians/Magi unwittingly fail to help Pharaoh in discovering the child (Josephus, Antiquities 2.218, Sotah 12b, Pirqei de R. Eliezer 48, Sefer Zikhronot, 44.2). There are three main differences between these traditions and the story in Matthew: the omen being a star leading the Magi to Jesus instead of a dream, the reason for the divorce, and the reversed order between divorce and massacre. The motif of the star appears not in Moses haggadah but in messianic interpretations of the Balaam oracle in Numbers 24:17, but the identification of Balaam as one of the magicians of Pharaoh and as the founder of the Magi gives one plausible reason for a relationship between the messianic star motif and the nativity traditions of Moses. The theme of the star going before to Magi, leading them to Jesus has another parallel with the story of Moses, namely, the pillar of cloud and fire that went before the Israelites to lead them out of Egypt (Exodus 13:21-22, 14:24). The novel reason for the divorce probably incorporates a piece of independent Jesus tradition responding to the claim that Mary's pregnancy as illegitimate (already echoed in the genealogy in Matthew 1:3, 5-6 and attested in the "Pandera" tradition in Origin, Contra Celsum 1.28-33, Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses 3.78.7, b. Yebamoth 49a). This different reason for the divorce also allows the divorce to come before the massacre, whereas in the Moses haggadah the divorce is a consequence of Pharaoh's decree.

    The material that follows the story of the Magi in Matthew 2:1-12 no longer parallels midrash on Moses' birth and instead takes up material pertaining to Moses and the exodus from the OT itself: (8) in v. 13-14 Jesus taken from his homeland because Herod endeavored to kill him, just as Moses fled from the land of his birth because Pharaoh sought to kill him (cf. Exodus 2:15), (9) v. 14-15 is also closely paralleled by 1 Kings 11:40, with Jeroboam fleeing to Egypt to escape from Solomon and staying there until Solomon's death, (10) the citation of Hosea 11:1 in v. 15 reflects the tradition of the Israelite exodus from Egypt in that text, and the author was probably led to that text by Balaam's oracle in Numbers 24:8 which has similar wording, (11) the use of teleuté to refer to the death of Herod in v. 15 is a hapax legomenon in the NT but reflects the wording in Exodus 4:19 LXX: "the king of Egypt died (eteleutésen)", (12) the massacre of male children related in v. 16 pertains to both the massacre of male children in Exodus 1:22 as well as Pharaoh seeking to kill Moses specifically in Exodus 2:15, (13) the command to Joseph to return to the land of his birth in v. 20 reproduces almost verbatim the text of Exodus 4:19 LXX (M: tethnékasin gar hoi zétountes tén psukhén tou paidiou; LXX: tethnékasin gar pantes hoi zétountes sou tén psukhén), even incorporating the plural hoi zétountes even though it has only a singular "Herod" as its grammatical antecedent, and (14) in v. 21 Joseph took his son and wife and returned to Israel, just as Moses took his wife and sons and returned to Egypt in Exodus 4:20.

    One interesting property of the Matthean parallels to Moses traditions is their absence from the Lukan account of the birth of Jesus. The Magi, the star associated with the Magi, King Herod panicking at ominous news and desiring to kill the newborn threatening his rulership, the divorcing between Joseph and Mary, the massacre of the infants, the flight from Egypt, and the call to return to Egypt -- these elements are wholly absent in Luke's story. This can be simply accounted for by supposing that the author of Matthew drew on Moses traditions whereas the author of Luke did not.

    The narrative focus on Moses in Matthew may reflect the author's interest in portraying Jesus as the fulfiller of the Law, as the rabbi who finally delivers the true understanding of the Torah (cf. especially ch. 5 and 23), thus making him a natural counterpart of Moses.

    And regarding the parallels with the Horus Harpocrates myth:

    The star accompanying Mary's pregnancy is related in Ignatius, Ephesians 19:2-3 in rather mythological terms (the star outshining all others and leading other stars together with the sun and moon to circle around it in a chorus, cf. the variant account in the Protevangelium of James 21:2) as occurring at the moment when the evil heavenly aeons were thrown into utter disarray -- this hints at a Chaoskampf theme in which the power of evil is defeated by divine providence. In Revelation 12, we have the birth of the messiah child occuring at the same time "a great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven" (v. 1), and the pregnant mother of the messiah is described in astral terms with "a crown of twelve stars on her head" with the sun and moon, paralleling the chorus of sun, moon, and stars in Ignatius (and cf. Isis as the "queen of heaven" associated with the sun, moon, and stars). But also interesting is the fact that the birth of the messiah child is threatened by the Dragon (= the Devil) who wants to kill the child "the moment it was born" (v. 5), and then the child was snatched into safety into God's presence and the mother "fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God" (v. 6). This constitutes a strong parallel with Matthew's plot of Herod endeavoring to kill Jesus and Mary fleeing with the child into Egypt (= the desert). The same story also relates a classic Chaoskampf battle between the angels of heaven (= the aeons of Ignatius) and the Dragon, with the Dragon defeated at the time the child's mother fled into the desert with the help of an eagle (v. 7-9, 13-14). The seemingly independent myth about the coming of the Savior in the Apocalypse of Adam parallels both Revelation and Matthew, without an overt Chaoskampf motif: "He came from a virgin womb. He was cast out of his city, he and his mother; he was brought to a desert place... And a bird came, took the child who was born and brought him onto a high mountain. And he was nourished by the bird of heaven. An angel came forth there and said to him, 'Arise, God has given you glory,' and thus he received glory and power" (78:6-26). So it is possible that the plot of sign in heaven during birth pangs > virgin birth > child threatened by forces of evil > child and mother escape to a desert place is an older mytheme that has different expressions in Revelation, Ignatius, the Apocalypse of Adam, and Matthew -- where in the case of the latter Herod takes the role that the Devil has in Revelation 12. But what is interesting about the myth in Revelation 12 is that it shows multiple parallels with the Egyptian myth of Horus Harpocrates-Isis-Typhon and the Greek myth of Apollo-Leto-Python. Herodotus (Historiae 2.156) in the fifth century BC showed that the Greek myth was a version of the Egyptian one, and the story was elsewhere related in variant forms in the Metternich Stele, Plutarch, De Iside 355-358, Lucan, Pharsalia 5.80-98, and Hyginus, Fabulae 140. In these stories, Leto/Isis -- pregnant by Zeus/Osiris -- was pursued by the great dragon Python/Typhon because he has learned that she would bear a child who would kill him, and she flees to a secret place with the help of the south wind (cf. the similar role of the wings of an eagle in Revelation) and the god Poseidon, and she gives birth to Apollo/Horus who then returns and defeats Python/Typhon and takes his authority to rule as king. It is certainly unclear whether the Leto/Isis myth underlies the whole birth > threat > flight plot pertaining to the birth of Jesus, since John of Patmos could have secondarily employed it in Revelation (along with some influence from Genesis 2-3) just as the author of Matthew secondarily appealed to traditions of the birth of Moses. But since the story in Matthew is so interested in Egypt both in terms of Moses and in terms of Jesus fleeing there, it is possible that the Egyptian myth (or some Hellenistic version of it) is not irrelevant to the Matthean story but played some role in the development of its underlying traditions.

    And my own speculation about similarities with the historical Herod the Great:

    What is interesting about Numbers 24:17 is that it looked to a messiah coming from within Israel whereas another messianic proof-text, Genesis 49:10 (in conjunction with Daniel 9:26) was used by the Herodian party to legitimize Herod as a Gentile messiah coming from outside Israel (cf. Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses 1.20.1.6, Origen, Commentary on Matthew 40, Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica 8.2.37, 8.2.102-103, Historia Ecclesiastica 1.6.5, Slavonic Josephus, Bellum Judaica 1.364-370). If it was Herodian propaganda to point to Genesis 49:10 and Daniel 9:26 to justify a Gentile ruler over Judea, the concurrent popularity of Numbers 24:17 (a prophecy made by a Gentile no less) as a messianic oracle may reflect its use as anti-Herodian propaganda by the king's political adversaries. There is also an interesting resonance with the story in Matthew 2 and what the historical Herod himself experienced. In 41 BC, the king of the Parthians (whose advisors included the Magi) came from the East and invaded Judea and overthrew the ruling priest-king Hyrcanus who was a puppet of the Romans. Herod, who was a loyal ally of Octavian (Augustus Caesar) and Mark Antony, fled Judea and escaped to Egypt and Queen Cleopatra arranged for him to meet the emperor in Rome. After a short exile, Herod received Roman backing and was made king of Judea in 40 BC and with the help of Roman legions he returned to Judea and fought against anti-Roman Jews loyal to the Parthians, finally ousting the Parthians in 38 BC but only through a bloody massacre was he able to secure Jerusalem and the throne of Judea in the summer of 37 BC. So in his rise to power, Herod experienced the arrival of Pathians from the East, a flight from Judea to Egypt followed by a return, and a grim massacre of the population at his own hands. Could there be a propagandistic reflection of these events in the story in Matthew? Maybe.

    You obviously have sizable amount of knowledge in regards to ancient middle Eastern theology, whats your opinion concerning the possible plagiarism probabilities derived from these ancient civilizations as they existed, interrelated and formed seemly close to one another?

    Well, there certainly was a lot of interest and influence in many specific cases. With respect to Mesopotamia, we can see its clear imprint in the primeval narratives of Genesis (with parallels to the Gilgamesh Epic and the Enuma Elish) and later Enochic literature (with even "Gilgamesh" appearing as a character in the Book of Giants). With respect to Egypt, we can see the relationship between Psalm 104 with the Hymn to the Aten and Proverbs 22-23 with the Instruction of Amenemope. With respect to Persia, we can see the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish dualism and apocalypticism, and even a Zoroastrian text (the Oracles of Hystaspes) circulating in a Jewish redaction in Jewish and Christian circles (which was likely a source for Revelation). Similarly, we can observe how Jews and Christians wrote oracles under the guise of the Sibyl. And of course Hellenistic thought deeply entrenched itself in the later Second Temple period.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Thanks again for your input Leolaia found it both interesting and informative

  • ninja_matty69
    ninja_matty69

    @ Entirely possible your questions are irrelevant but i will let them stand and answer them in case you geniunley want to contribute. "Who are "some"? What specifically do they say?" An ex JW on dawkins.com pm many years ago about this. Was very sure he had found genuine reasons discrediting the bible. I thought it prudent to check it out in case it was true. "Who are "they"?" This same chap mentioned history and the pyramids contradicted bible history. But if you check most secular history books and website, those who have knowledge of the subject AND do not believe the bible will say the pyramid structures, eygptian history conflict with the bible generally and the bible flood account. I accept your comments from a literiture critique viewpoint. If it was my dissertation my tutor would raise these objections. If i ever get the time or energy to complete this section i will take these on board. However, my primary objection was to receive feedback on the material itself not the word formation and citation. But thanks again for pointing this minor point. As a general note i believe the majority of the information given is well known generally with a little personal research by any reader. My observations are obviously not well known and are my views. Hence generally this particular section is not very well referenced. My other work is generally referenced to a greater extent.

    @ sir82

    You are correct i have cited on book at the end for a number of final additions. and also i added in a few lines from this book in the middle somewhere. The reason for this is because i read this book long after my initial report and simply added in as a last minute item. I left some of the citations in. Your other comments are emotive and lack any logic, relevance or purpose

    @mp

    you seem to question the kingdoms of david and solomon and later history. My report above does little to touch on this. Briefly i would say the following though.

    Under the kingship of David we read that “Judah and Israel were many, like the grains of the sand that are by the sea for multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing” |1 Kings 4:20|. Corroborating these statements we read elsewhere “Archaelogical evidence reveals that there was a population explosion in Judah during and after the tenth century B.C. when the peace and prosperity David brought made it possible to build many new towns” |Archaelogoy of the Bible: Book by Book, by Gaalyah Cornfield, 1976, p.99|

    In the book of Job it mentions the “gold of Ophir” and equates it with “pure gold” |Job 28:15, 16| Years later King David,is said to have collected “gold of Ophir” for the construction of the temple in Jerusalem. His son Solomon likewise imported this gold from Ophir |1 Chronicles 29:3, 4; 1 Kings 9:28; 1 Kings 9:26|. The location of Ophir is much debated as its position is unknown on modern maps, lending doubt amongst some as to the autenthicity of these records. However, Egyptologist Kenneth A. Kitchen writes “Ophir itself is no myth. A Hebrew ostracon of perhaps the eighth century is clearly inscribed with the brief note of account: ‘Gold of Ophir for Beth-Horon – 30 shekels.’ Ophir here is a real source of gold, just as with ‘Gold of Amau’ or ‘Gold of Punt’ or ‘Gold of Kush’ in Egyptian texts – gold in each case, either derive3d from the land namede or from that lands type or quality”.

    Soon after solomons reign Jeremiah and Ezra also mention the invasion of Judah by Pharaoh Shishak, specifically stating that it occurred “in the fifth year of King Reoboam” the Judean King which corresponds to 993 B.C.E. in bible chronology |1 Kings 13:25-28; 2 Chronicles 12:1-12|. During recent archaeological excavations in the modern city of Arad, many structures and inscriptions were found especially on ostraca, fragments of pottery used as writing tablets. One layer of the dig bears evidence of a fiery conflagration and has been dated to the beginning of the tenth century B.C.E. Such findings line up with the time of the invasion of the Egyptian King Shishak (Sheshonk’s or Shoshenq I), just five years after Solomon’s death. Then there came to light a relief obn the wall of an Egyptian temple at Karnak (ancient Thebes), southern egypt. The relief depicts Shishak standing before the god Amon, Shishak’s arm raised in the act of smiting captices. Also recorded are the names of conquered Israelite towns, many of which have been identified with Biblical sites. Additionaly the document mentions “The Field of Abram” – the earliest reference to the biblical patriarch Abraham in Egyptian records |Genesis 17:5; 25:7-10| The wall relief commemorates that invasion and lists Arad among the many vanquished cities |2 Chronicles 12:1-4|

    The above are just a few brief notes i have to hand. Throughout bible history secular history corroborates. The main driver of this thread though was initially the issue of the egyptian history being flawed. I am sure if we have no further info to discuss on this we can start looking at other areas though.

  • ninja_matty69
    ninja_matty69

    @ billy "Your conclusion doesn't logically follow the evidence you present." Example please... "Just because someone may find discrepancies in Egyptian history doesn't prove that the Bible is accurate in any way." This was not the intention of my paper. You are building a straw man argument. "The Bible doesn't mention the pyramids, so obviously the pyramids were never built during the era that they Bible was written." Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I don't see the relevance of what your saying "Clearly, they were built much later by the Muslems. That fact is proven because all Ancient Egyptian tombs and structures are covered and filled with idolatrous artwork." Now your losing it... i won't read your post further

    @ nancydrew

    "Check out Gobekli tepe in turkey that will really give you some conflict." I see your point. However, that is not the purpose of this paper, i have an other paper looking at such issues you raise. I don't have this work to hand and its not for this thread as it was intended to be purely egyptian history. Generally though such monuments and the like are dated using techniques which have problems.

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    LOL Leolaia I'm lovestruck. :-))

    After spending 10 days in Egypt and all the valley of the Kings and Queens and two days in the Cairo museum (when it just so happened that all of Tut's treasures were not on tour but all THERE-covers an entire floor of the museum) , I know their history is much older than the WT says (though they (Egyptians) do tend to "erase" unpopular evidences. I spent more time in Israel visiting ancient synagogues and old temple ruins in Jerusalem). Too much to comment on with a bad headache, but I will share sum pictures for entertainment soon.

    BTW, Oklahoma just bought Egypt!

    Randy

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Okay, herez some Egipped piktures from circa 1984:

    http://www.randallwatters.org/media/Egypt.zip

    250 megs, so smoke 'em if you got 'em.

    Dogz

  • mP
    mP

    ninjaMatt69 -> mp

    you seem to question the kingdoms of david and solomon and later history. My report above does little to touch on this. Briefly i would say the following though.

    Under the kingship of David we read that “Judah and Israel were many, like the grains of the sand that are by the sea for multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing” |1 Kings 4:20|. Corroborating these statements we read elsewhere “Archaelogical evidence reveals that there was a population explosion in Judah during and after the tenth century B.C. when the peace and prosperity David brought made it possible to build many new towns” |Archaelogoy of the Bible: Book by Book, by Gaalyah Cornfield, 1976, p.99|

    mp -> ninjamatt

    Im sorry your completely dishonest in what you as saying, because you misrepresnt what the Bible portrays about David. It would appear from your commentary that you are chosing your words carefully, what exactly does "many" mean ? Im sure it is true that someone around Davids time was a ruler of a few townships or hamlets. However how exactly do you judge prosperity ? Archeology has failed to find any palace of David even after they knowing where to look. Ancient old jerusalem is a small place you can walk around the entire place in literally less than one hour. THe jews in Jesus time thought of David as a mighty conquerer, they hoped his descendant would also defeat the Romans. This is hardly compatible with your story of some successful ruler of a few towns with a few dnkeys and sheep.

    Read the Bible stories, they hardly show David being anything but grand.

    Solomon supposedly employed hundreds of thousands to build the temple and yet the dimensions in the Bible amount to a building that is about the size of a modest house. It would appear that some editor when editing and inserting hyperbole forgot to recalculate amd update the parts that detail the architecture of the temple.

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