Reasoning on "It doesn't matter if the FDS are wrong"

by konceptual99 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  konceptual99

  I had a bit of chat with my wife last night after she was worried that I was less than enthusiastic about the ministry this morning. I expressed that I was slightly confused about the generations and how it's kept changing despite 1914 etc. being a core doctrine. I said that the FDS should be bolstering my faith in Jehovah but the lack of real clarity on this was actually hindering it - how could this be right?

  She was very understanding but basically couldn't see the point about what question it brings up about the GB and FDS. Her basic response was that it doesn't really matter if they have it wrong. We need to concentrate doing what we need to do to make it into the new order regardless of when it comes and ultimately where else could we go?

  My response is that I've never been one to look for a date or be concerned about speculating but the point is not about what Jehovah's intentions are but what we are submitting to by accepting the FDS as God's channel when they are looking less and less trustworthy. I used the example of us as parents and that if we expect our kids to sometimes just do as they are told without question we have to give them plenty of reasons and confidence to do that - help them build their trust in us as parents by being consistent and reliable.

  I'm reading Captives atm and this is exactly what is being discussed in this book so hopefully there will be further info on how I can help my wife to see the real picture but any thoughts/experiences would be most appreciated.
• 

  cedars

  I was going to start a thread on this subject from a slightly different angle, but I think the situation with your wife perfectly epitomises what I was going to say.

  When I was first "awakening" I made the mistake of talking to some friends (who also happened to be elders) in a vain attempt to explain my decision to become inactive. By the way, I wouldn't recommend ANYONE to try doing this! Fortunately, thanks partly to some excellent advice I received on this forum, I managed to wind down the conversations before any real harm was done or any "apostate" alarms were raised.

  I will always remember one of my elder friends saying something along the lines of "anyway, even if this wasn't the truth, it's still the best way of life for me and my family".

  I was wondering the other day whether that answer was meant seriously, or was it just a programmed response? I can't think of any sane person knowingly following a religion that he KNOWS to be false purely because it affords him a nice way of living. Regardless of any remedial social benefits, the fact remains that one is investing a colossal amount of time and energy in something that is ultimately futile, not to mention the risks of dying through want of a blood transfusion or the emotional turmoil of schisms with friends/family who are disfellowshipped. I can't think of any of those terrible consequences being considered as "expendable" simply for the lifestyle benefits of one's faith.

  My only conclusion is that people such as my friend (and your wife) come up with these kinds of responses because this is how they are programmed to think. We are repeatedly cited John 6:68,69 and basically told that, even if our beliefs are flawed, there is NOWHERE else for us to turn to. We are led to believe that catastrophe would ensue if we were to so much as dip a toe beyond the confines of our faith. The moment we leave the protection of Jehovah's Witnesses, we are destined to perish from some sexually transmitted disease or drug overdose. Obviously, this isn't said in so many words - but it is the IMPRESSION that is given, both in the literature and from talks on the platform.

  I sum this up in the following article in my blog, which hopefully you will find of some interest...

  http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/lord-whom-shall-we-go-away-to

  Your wife's objections amply illustrate just how cult-like the organization is. Making followers believe that there is nowhere else to run to is just another mechanism of control, and people end up becoming institutionalized within their own religious beliefs. It often frustrates me that we as human beings can be so easily manipulated, but sadly, that's the way it is.

  Cedars
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  Black Sheep

  Ask if it would matter if you shunned your children, siblings, or parents because they DAd or got DFd because they wouldn't lie and pretend to believe something that isn't true?

  Ask what do they think god would think of someone who did that to their family?
• 

  zeb

  Faithful and discreet slave? They dont exist. They and the Governing Body are just a convenient teological arrangement. So said the WTS lawyers at a child abuse case in Victoria (Australia)
• 

  Scully

  Well, apparently it *does* matter when the Catholic Church is wrong, and apparently it *does* matter when Catholic priests molest children. If you are going to hold other people to a certain standard, even the Bible expects you to hold yourself to the same standard. If it were any other church besides JWs, they would be all over it like a dirty shirt.

  " For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." ~ Matthew 7:2

  " For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." ~ Luke 6:38

  "And He was saying to them, 'Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides.'" ~ Mark 4:24

  Once I started seeing failings within the Organization™, I no longer felt that JWs had any right to judge other peoples' belief systems. The JWs were just as flawed.
• 

  Healthworker

  In a healthy enviroment you have debate, discussion and critical thinking. Who would get medical treatment at a hospital where doctors are shunned for evalueting new scientific evidence?

  Some basic principles can be regarded as "true". For instant that life is sacred and that christian love should be the fundamental motivation. Also, some consensus would be appropriate concerning "doctrine", otherwise people would be pretty confused.

  But, there is no conflict between an open and honest enviroment which allows sound debate and consensus regards to some basic true principles.

  Jesus said that you will know a tree based on it's fruits. Good tree makes happy and prosperous people. Some trees are not either "good" or "bad". The fruit tastes okay, but nothing special. Those among jw who worship according to the bible, makes pretty ok fruit. Those who depend more on wt than the bible, are not so happy. To claim that it is the only truth, would demand a much higher level of honesty and bibleunderstanding than jw has today. The overall bibleknowledge is not that impressive.

  I have went to meetings about 10 years all over, but have never had any friends who ever debated Luk 12:42-48 and the slave that misunderstood the asignement.
• 

  00DAD

  Cedar's "elder friend's" response: even if this wasn't the truth, it's still the best way of life for me and my family

  Bertrand Russell on Religion

  Starting @ 0:18 - 3:25

  Q: Do you think there's a practical reason for having a religious belief?

  A: Well there can't be a practical reason for believing what isn't true! … Either a thing is true or it isn't. If it is true you should believe it, and if it isn't you shouldn't. And if you can't find out whether it's true or whether isn't you should suspend judgment.

  It seems to me a fundamental dishonesty and a fundamental treachery to intellectual integrity to hold a belief because you think it's useful and not because you think it's true.

  Bertrand Russell on Religion
• 

  Fernando

  Hey konceptual99!

  I pray you find the right questions to prompt your wife to start thinking and reasoning.

  Some of my favourite questions:

  1. Is legalism apostasy? (Researching "legalism" in the wt library will lead to a great article which reads like a summary of ISOCF by Ray Franz)
  2. How would you explain the "experiment that failed" as discussed in the Watchtower library? How does this apply to our day?
  3. Is it true that the Bible's refers to the "good news" roughly 152 times?
  4. Is it true that more than half these are by Paul?
  5. What sort of spiritual food keeps people ignorant of the "good news" according to Paul?

  The great thing about this approach is that your wife need only refer to the Watchtower publications. Focusing on the positive (the "good news") instead of the negative (1914 etc), can also be a powerful strategy to keep her mind open.

  The full "good news" can be found in their publications, but not in their hearts and not on their lips. This is no accident, and when your wife eventually "sees" it she'll be horrified. How can they claim to be "publishers of the good news" whilst being woefully ignorant of it?

  If your wife has spiritual needs, the above questions could help prevent her from (fruitlessly) trying to have these fulfilled in yet another religion, if she were to leave the Watchtower.

  All religion is a snare and a racket - as well as hostile towards and deleterious of the full unabridged gospel or "good news".

  When leaving one of the worst religions on the planet, it is easy to fall into the trap where almost any other religion seems great by comparison.
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  Fernando

  Welcome Healthworker!

  May you enjoy your stay and make many good friends along the way.

  Loved your post:

  In a healthy enviroment you have debate, discussion and critical thinking. Who would get medical treatment at a hospital

  where doctors are shunned for evaluating new scientific evidence?
• 

  00DAD

  Of course it matters it the FDS are wrong!

  If they're wrong, it ain't "The Truth". Duh!!!

  BTW, there is no such thing as the F&DS anyways:

  The Faithful and Discreet Slave - A JW Myth

  Fernando, great article on "legalism"! Thanks for suggesting it.

  "Why the Emphasis on Christian Freedom?" g79 6/8, p. 28

  Their legalistic approach in matters of worship would have brought Christians back under an arrangement that only exposed individuals as being sinners and deserving of death. - Rom. 3:20; 6:23.

  To exchange ... legalism for Christian freedom, therefore, constitutes a denial of Christian faith.