If solid proof were suddenly found that the Book of Enoch should be included in the standard Bible, would that pose a problem for the Jehovah's Witnesses in regards to Michael the Archangel as Jesus?

by I_love_Jeff 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Why are they so resistant to Jesus being God? Scripture is inconclusive. Most Christians today view Jesus as God. It is to be contrary. The Trinity is objectioable to me when I view it literally. As a clumsy description of different aspects of God, it makes sense to me. I suppose they view most items literally so there is carry over. Large sections of early Chrisianity did not worship a Trinity. Why is it so important? Jesus makes a much nicer and accessible God than YHWH.

    Silly me, When I left at sixteen, I had no clue who Jesus was. Did they teach this Michael teaching back in the 1960s? My view of Jesus remains muddled by popular culture.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    BOTR - part of the hatred of the notion of Jesus as God comes from rejection of the Trinity. But there is probably a deeper reason for this - the witnesses really are modern-day Gnostics, and have great admiration for Arianism.

    As another subtle way they like to marginalize Jesus - note that they are quite fond of calling attention to "the 144001" and also have put the annointed in between Jesus and the rank and file "other sheep" as a sort of auxiliary mediator class.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    If "solid proof" were found to validate the Book of Enoch's claim to inspiration then surely that proof would have to apply to whole Bible? - and then the whole world of skepticism would be blown apart....

    The points made already about references in Jude would appear to be as strong as any, but I have no prior knowledge of them . Try telling it to the dub at your door and see whether he takes it seriously....If it ain't in the NWT, they will not listen

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    What are the oldest sources giving this history of Yahweh, please? it really puts things into perspective.

    The oldest sources are found in the OT, particularly the archaic poetic texts. The oldest texts in the Bible are the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15) and the Song of Deborah (Judges 5), dating to sometime between the eleventh and the ninth centuries BC. The language in these poems stands out as exceptionally early, like Shakespeare alongside Jane Austen. Other very early sources, from the tenth to the eighth centuries BC, include Psalm 29, the Blessing of Jacob (Genesis 49), the Blessing of Moses (Deuteronomy 33), the Song of Habakkuk (Habakkuk 3), and liturgical fragments in some of the other psalms, including Psalm 20 (thought to derive from the prayer used in the El shrine at Bethel), Psalm 24 (thought to derive from the autumn liturgy of the ark's procession to the sanctuary), and Psalm 132 (thought to contain the divine enthronement liturgy from Jerusalem). Most of the OT was written much later, between the seventh and the fourth centuries BC.

    Some salient passages from these early sources: "Yahweh is a warrior, Yahweh is his name. Pharaoh and his army he hurled into the sea .... Who is like you among the gods, Yahweh? Who is like you, terrible among the holy ones .... Let Yahweh reign forever and ever" (Song of the Sea), " When you Yahweh went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water. The mountains quaked before Yahweh, the One from Sinai... From the heavens the stars fought, from their courses they fought against Sisera " (Song of Deborah), "Yahweh from Sinai came, he beamed forth from Seir upon us, he shone forth from Mount Paran. With him were myraids of holy ones, at his right hand marched the divine ones" (Blessing of Moses), "Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of El, ascribe to Yahweh glory and might, ascribe to Yahweh the glory due his name....The voice of Yahweh is on the waters, Yahweh is upon the Deep, the voice of Yahweh is mighty, the voice of Yahweh is majestic. The voice of Yahweh shatters the cedars, Yahweh shatters the cedars of Lebanon....In his temple all cry glory, Yahweh sits enthroned over the Flood, Yahweh is enthroned as king forever" (Psalm 29), "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran....Before him walked Pestilence, Plague marched at his feet. He stood and shook the earth, he looked and startled the nations. The ancient mountains were shattered, the eternal hills collapsed... You crushed the leader of the land of wickedness, you stripped him from head to foot. With his own spear you pierced his head when his warriors stormed out to scatter us, " (Song of Habakkuk), "Lift up, O Gates, your heads, lift yourselves up ancient doors, the king of glory shall enter. Who is this king of glory? Yahweh mighty and valient, Yahweh the warrior" (Psalm 24). Also compare the eighth century BC inscriptions from Kuntillet 'Ajrud: "I bless you by Yahweh of Teman and his asherah...May he prolong their days and be satisfied [...] Yahweh of Teman has dealt favorably with [...] When El shone forth in [...] and mountains melted, and peaks grew weak [...] Baal on the day of battle [...] on the day of battle".

    This is all based on the older Canaanite model of the divine conflict (Chaoskampf) paving the way for the enthronement of the God on his holy mountain, temple, city, or land. The most celebrated example of this is in the Baal Cycle, wherein Baal battles Yamm (the Sea) and upon defeating him is enthroned on Mount Saphon (cf. Baal-Zephon as a toponym in the OT and Yahweh's holy mountain referred to by the same name elsewhere); a similar battle is known between Baal and Anat with Lotan, another chaos dragon, who had seven heads. Another well-known example from Babylon is the battle between Marduk and the chaos dragon Tiamat (the Deep). The OT similarly contains many allusions to Yahweh's battle with the chaos dragon: "Did you not split Rahab in two, and pierce the dragon through? Did you not dry up the sea, the waters of the great Deep, to make the seabed a road for the redeemed to cross?" (Isaiah 51:9-10), "You control the pride of the Sea, when its waves ride high you calm them, you crushed Rahab, as one wounded, and scattered your enemies with your mighty arm" (Psalm 89:9-10), "With his power he calmed the Sea, with his wisdom he struck Rahab down. His breath made the heavens luminous, his hand transfixed the Fleeing Serpent" (Job 26:12-13), "By your power you split the Sea in two, and smashed the heads of monsters in the waters, you crushed the heads of Leviathan" (Psalms 74:12-15), etc. Leviathan here exactly corresponds to the Lotan of Canaanite myth. We read in Isaiah 27:1: "That day Yahweh with his hard sword, will punish Leviathan, the fleeing serpent, Leviathian the twisting serpent, he will kill the sea-dragon". This is almost word-for-word similar to what is said in the Ugaritic Baal Cycle: "When you smite Lotan, the fleeing serpent, finish off the twisting serpent, the close-coiling one with seven heads". The idea that Leviathan had seven heads is echoed in Isaiah 11:15: "Yahweh will dry up the gulf of the Sea of Egypt ... and stretch out his hand over the River and divide it into seven streams". Leviathan as a dragon of course is described in detail in Job 40-41. This myth about the dragons named Leviathan and Rahab directly contributed to the themes and imagery in Revelation 12. Here we encounter a "huge red dragon" with seven heads (v. 3), also described as "the primeval serpent", who combats Michael the archangel: "And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels, but they were defeated and driven out of heaven" (v. 7-10). So here Michael takes the place of Yahweh in this traditional Chaoskampf myth.

    But where did Michael originate, obvious ly he a warrior prince god but from which culture, or has this been lost in time ?

    Israelite culture. As I said in my last post, Michael adopts some of the functions previously held by Yahweh. Once Yahweh becomes the transcendent God who cannot be approached directly but only through intermediates, who alone receives worship and is recognized as a god, then someone else has to assume the role that was previously filled by Yahweh. Michael however also appears in the unrelated role as psychopomp. Yahweh never was a psychopomp in any earlier tradition. The Second Temple Jewish conception of Michael obviously conflates originally independent divine figures. Perhaps Michael originally was a god with psychopomp functions. No one really knows.

  • Quarterback
    Quarterback

    Wow, this is all interesting, and very deep. I wish we had it clearer, and not fragmented in pieces in the Bible Canon.

    I know that we had as many as 20 Gospel accounts about Jesus in the first century. The early church had to select how to disect the books to complete the Canon.

    I'm not sure if the Book of Enoch that Jude quoted from was exactly the Book of Enoch that is found in the Apocrypha. How can we be sure?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I'm not sure if the Book of Enoch that Jude quoted from was exactly the Book of Enoch that is found in the Apocrypha. How can we be sure?

    Because he quotes verbatim from it, and elsewhere uses language and concepts undeniably from the book. The same goes for the Assumption of Moses. The author of Jude was clearly familiar with both books. Also 1 Enoch was one of the most influential books of the period and was quoted as scripture by other early Christian writers. It also should be pointed out that the passage quoted directly by the author of Jude is extant in pre-Christian manuscripts of 1 Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The only other book circulating under the name of Enoch (2 Enoch) lacks the parallels with Jude and was clearly written much later, quite possibly after Jude was composed (that is, in the second century AD; it is extant only in Old Church Slavonic and in a Coptic fragment, and the earliest evidence of it appears in Clement of Alexandria and Origen).

    Here is a synoptic comparison of Jude and the source texts (given in either Greek or Latin depending on whether the passage utilizes language from the Assumption of Moses) that I have made recently.

    Jude 3-4: " I found it necessary to write urging you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (tè hapax paradotheise tois hagiois pistei)"

    Assumption of Moses 4:8: "But the two tribes shall remain in the faith first laid down for them (permanebunt in praeposita fide sua)".

    Jude 6: "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned (apolipontas) their proper abode (to idion oikètèrion), he has kept (tetèrèken) in eternal (aidiois) bonds (desmois) under dense darkness (hupo zophon) for the judgment of the great day (eis krisin megalès hèmeras)".

    1 Enoch 12:4: "Go and make known to the Watchers of heaven who have abandoned (apolipontes) the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women."

    1 Enoch 15:3, 7: "For what reason have you abandoned (apelipete) the high, holy, and eternal heaven; and slept with women and defiled yourselves with the daughters of the people.... I did not make wives for you, for the abode (hè katoikèsis) of spiritual beings of heaven is heaven".

    1 Enoch 10:4-6: "Go, Raphael, and bind (dèson) Asael hand and foot and throw him into the darkness (skotos) and let him dwell there for eternity (eis tous aiònas).... Cover up his face in order that he may not see light, in order that he may be sent into the fire on the great day of judgment (en tèi hèmerai tès megalès tès kriseós)".

    1 Enoch 10:11-12: "Go, Michael, and bind (dèson) Shemihazah and the others with him, who have fornicated with the daughters of men, that they will die together with him in all their defilement.... Bind them (déson autous) for seventy generations underneath the rocks of the ground until the day of their judgment (hèmeras kriseòs) and consummation until the eternal (tou aiònos tòn aiònòn) judgment (krima) is concluded".

    1 Enoch 14:5: "It has been decreed to bind you (dèsai humas) in bonds (en tois desmois) in the earth for all the days of eternity (eis pasas tas geneas tou aiònos)".

    Jude 9: " But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the Devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' "

    Assumption of Moses (lost conclusion): The only surviving manuscript is missing its ending but it certainly contained an account of Moses' death, burial, and assumption of his soul to heaven. According to Gelasius, it contained a story in which the archangel Michael disputed with the Devil: " In the book of the Assumption of Moses, the archangel Michael in a discussion with the Devil says: 'For by his Holy Spirit all of us have been created' and further he says 'God's spirit went forth from his face, and the world came into being' " (Historia Ecclesiastica 2.21.7). His knowledge of the book was accurate since the same passage also quotes from Assumption of Moses 1:14. Origen affirmed that this was "a book which the apostle Jude mentions in his epistle" (De Principiis, 3.2.1). Didymus Caecus also noted that some people "take exception to the present epistle and object to the Assumption of Moses, on account of that place where the archangel 's word to the Devil concerning the body of Moses is indicated" (In Epistula Judae Ennaratio). The lost story of Moses' burial and assumption from the Assumption of Moses was also probably summarized by Clement of Alexandria: "Joshua son of Nun saw Moses double when he was taken up: one Moses with the angels and another one in the mountains honored with burial in their ravines. And Joshua saw this spectacle below being elevated by the Spirit along with Caleb" (Stromateis 6.15). There are parallels to other extracanonical stories about the death and burial of the patriarchs:

    Life of Adam and Eve 39:1 (Latin recension): "Then Seth said to the beast : ' May the Lord God rebuke you! Stop, be quiet, close your mouth, cursed enemy of truth, chaotic destroyer' ".

    Life of Adam and Eve 37:4-6, 40:1-6 (Greek recension): "The Lord of all, sitting on his holy throne, stretched out his hands and took Adam and handed him over to the archangel Michael saying to him, 'Take him up to Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave him there until that great and fearful day which I am about to establish for the world.' And the archangel Michael took Adam and brought him away and left him, just as God told him at the pardoning of Adam....Then he spoke to the archangel Michael , 'Go into Paradise in the third heaven and bring me three cloths of linen and silk.' And God said to Michael , Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael, 'Cover Adam's body with the cloths and bring oil from the oil of fragrance and pour it on him....Then the angels took up the body and set it on the rock, until the time his father died, and both were buried according to the command of God in the regions of Paradise in the place from which God had found the dust".

    Testament of Abraham 7:15-16: "And Michael said to Abraham, 'Your son Isaac has spoken the truth, for you are like the sun, and you will be taken up into the heavens while your body remains on the earth until even thousand ages are fulfilled. For then all flesh will be raised' ".

    Testament of Abraham 20:10-12, 14: "And immediately the archangel Michael stood beside him with multitudes of angels, and they bore his precious soul in their hands in divinely woven linen. And they tended the body of the righteous Abraham with divine ointments and perfumes until the third day after his death. And they buried him in the promised land at the oak of Mamre, while the angels escorted his precious soul and they set it down for the worship of the God and Father .... who came speaking thus, 'Take, then, my friend Abraham into Paradise where there are the tents of my righteous ones and where the mansions of my holy ones, Isaac and Jacob, are in his bosom, where there is no toil, no grief, no moaning, but peace and exultation and endless life".

    Jude 12-13: "They are clouds blown along by the wind without giving rain (nephelai anudroi hupo anemòn parapheromenai), autumnal trees bearing no fruit (dendra phthinopòrina akarpa), dead twice over and uprooted, wild waves of the sea (kumata agria thalassès) casting up the foam of their abominations, wandering stars (asteres planètai) for whom the black darkness (ho zophos tou skotous) has been reserved (tetèrètai) forever (eis aiòna)".

    1 Enoch 80:2-6: "In the days of the sinners the years will grow shorter ... everything on the earth will change and will not appear at their times, the rain will be withheld, and the sky will retain it. At those times, the fruit of the earth will be late and will not grow at its normal time, and the fruit of the trees will be withheld at its proper time. The moon will change its order and will not appear at its proper time ... Many heads of stars will wander from their command and will change their ways and actions and will not appear at the times prescribed for them".

    1 Enoch 101:2-4: "If he closes the windows of heaven, and withholds the dew and the rain from descending because of you, what will you do? Why do you speak with your mouth proud and hard things against his majesty? You will have no peace. Look at the captains who sail the sea! Their ships are shaken by wave and storm".

    1 Enoch 18:14-16: "This place is the prison (desmòtèrion) for the stars and the hosts of heaven (astrois kai tais dunamesin tou ouranou).... They transgressed the command (hoi parabantes prostagma) of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, for they did not come out in their appointed times (ouk exèlthan en tois kairois autòn). And he was angry with them and bound them (edèsen autous) until the time of the consummation of their sins, that is for ten thousand years".

    1 Enoch 21:6: "These are the stars of heaven that transgressed the command (tòn asteròn tou ouranou hoi parabantes tèn epitagèn) of the Lord; they have been bound (edethèsan) here until ten thousand years are fulfilled, that is, the time of their sins".

    1 Enoch 88:1-3: "He seized that first star that had fallen from heaven (astera ek tou ouranou peptòkota), and he bound it (edèsen auton) by its hands and feet and threw it into an abyss (eis pharaggas), and that abyss (pharagx) was narrow and deep and desolate and dark (skoteinè).... Behold, one of those four who had come from heaven hurled stones from heaven and gathered and took all the great stars (panta asteras megalous), whose organs were like the organs of horses, and bound (edèsen) all of them by their hands and their feet, and threw them into an abyss (eis pharaggas) of the earth".


    Jude 14-16: " Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'Behold, the Lord is coming with myriads upon myriads of his holy ones (ecce venit Dominus in sanctis milibus suis) to execute judgment on all (facere judicium contra omnes), and to convict all of them of all the ungodly deeds they have done (arguere omnes impios de omnibus operibus) in an ungodly (impie) way, and for all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him (de omnibus duris quae locuti sunt contra eum peccatores impii)'. These ones are grumblers (quaerulosi sunt ) and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; their mouths utter proud things ( os illorum loquitur superba ) and they show partiality to persons ( mirantes personas ) for the sake of profit ( quaestus causa )".

    1 Enoch 1:9: "Behold, he comes with myriads of his holy ones (ecce venit cum multis milibus sanctorum suorum) to execute judgment on all (facere judicium de omnibus), and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds they have committed (arguere omnen carnem de omnibus factis impiorum quae fecerunt), and for all the proud and harsh words that the wicked sinners have spoken against him (de omnibus verbis impiis quae locuti sunt contra eum peccatores)".

    1 Enoch 5:4: "You have not been long-suffering and you have not done the commandments of the Lord, but you have transgressed and spoken proud and harsh words with your unclean mouths against his majesty (locutus superbus et dura verba cum immundus ore contra majestatem)".

    1 Enoch 101:2-3: "Why do you utter with your mouth proud and harsh things against his majesty (quid cum ore superbus et dura quae contra majestatem loqui)?"

    Assumption of Moses 5:5: "For the scholars who will be their teachers in those times will show partiality to persons ( mirantes personas ) who please them and they accept gifts (acceptiones munerum)".

    Assumption of Moses 7:7-9: " They will be grumblers (quaerulosi erunt), liars, hiding themselves lest they be recognized as ungodly (impii)...And their hands and minds will deal with impurities, and their mouth will speak enormities (os eorum loquetur ingentia)".

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    If solid proof was suddenly found that absurdly long thread titles irritated the shit out of people, would you shorten them?

    As to the topic, I'm all in favor of putting the Book of Enoch in the Bible Canon, as long as Alice in Wonderland gets in too.

    Farkel

  • Quarterback
    Quarterback

    Thanks, Leo

    There is quite a bit to asimilate here. I will spend some time looking into this. I did spend some time looking into Wikipedia about the Book of Enoch.

    At first glance you would think that if this was accepted as part of the Canon, the argument for the Heavenly afterlife is favored.

    The WT says that this book was written after the apostles, however there is evidence that some fragments have been found with the Dead Sea scrolls...that's interesting.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    At first glance you would think that if this was accepted as part of the Canon, the argument for the Heavenly afterlife is favored.

    Well, it would be harder to maintain the existing doctrines without doing more explaining away of texts, but since they already this with many passages in the NT, this is certainly doable. It is likely though that if 1 Enoch was already part of the Bible, the theology of JWs (and Christianity in general) would have developed in quite a different direction.

    The WT says that this book was written after the apostles, however there is evidence that some fragments have been found with the Dead Sea scrolls...that's interesting.

    Did they really say that? The oldest parts of the book were written in the third century BC (the Book of Watchers and the Book of Luminaries), and then material was added in the second century BC (the Book of Dreams and the Epistle of Enoch), with the introduction in ch. 1-5 added in the first century BC, and finally the Book of Parables was added in the early first century AD.

  • Aware!
    Aware!

    Leolaia: How do you know so much? Private/personal research, or did you go to a school after leaving the witnesses? I look forward to your posts all the time. The effort you put into your posts is amazing!

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