by minimus 49 Replies latest jw friends
Indian Larry- The holding hands legislation was what finally pushed me over the edge. Just couldn't take any more legalism.
There are several threads on it. Here is one: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/182583/1/new-WT-rule-no-holding-hands-durning-public-prayer
I think it's alot different from the religion that my parents accepted and raised me in.
My parents speak of how uplifted they felt when they left the meetings. How many anointed there were and how they used their bibles with ease. We were happy to have less in a material way both in our own lives and in the organization.
Even the talks are all manuscript and the meetings are sterile and boring.
Quendi: the talk was about leading the kind of lives that would please Jehovah and being a footstep follower of Jesus Christ.
It definitely is not the same as when I joined in the early '80s. I joined to become a better person, not a WT Robot that blindly follows illogical changes and incoherent doctrines out of fear of being DF by a loony bunch of out-of-touch old geezers that are bent on Unquestioning Obedience and Conformity with complete disregard to the Bible's message of love, compassion and forgiveness.
The GB has gone apostate.
As a note, I've come to conclude that what JWs call "repentance" is actually coerced compliance and submission. They will only "forgive" sinners that dutifully obey and submit.
@ 00DAD: You wrote, “As a note, I've come to conclude that what JWs call ‘repentance’ is actually coerced compliance and submission. They will only ‘forgive’ sinners that dutifully obey and submit.”
That was exactly my experience with my judicial committee the last two times we met in June 2010. I had been disfellowshipped five years earlier but the committee was no longer concerned with my original offense. They told me point blank that I would not be reinstated unless and until I acknowledged the WTS as the “sole channel” God was using to communicate with mankind. Nothing else mattered, only my pledge of allegiance to this assertion. I refused and have had no communication or contact with the organization since.
Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of conscience no longer exist among Jehovah’s Witnesses. What vestiges that once were present and exercised have been excised, and done in such a subtle manner that the majority of Witnesses never noticed! Every aspect of a Witness’s life, from the cradle to the grave, from dress and grooming to home décor, from the conduct of one’s business to the most intimate personal and sexual relations, the WTS has issued some kind of ruling, edict, decree, or fatwa which is intended to maintain control over its adherents.
I’ve used the analogy of a boa constrictor slowly suffocating its prey once its coils have wrapped themselves around the victim to describe this organization's modus operandi of control. That is what is happening today to Witnesses individually and collectively. Looking back on my more than forty years’ association and participation in the religion, I marvel I escaped at all.
Quendi
"The "faithful and discreet slave" was rarely mentioned. Instead, the talk was about leading the kind of lives that would please Jehovah and being a footstep follower of Jesus Christ… reading and understanding the Bible was also very important. WTBS publications…. did not have primacy over or even equality with the Bible back then."- Quendi."
We used to have piano players male and female, things started going downhill musically when they started playing. Albums and would not let the piano players play. There was no internet; in fact, there were only four channels on TV. If you went to a bookstore the religious section with bibles and so forth were maybe two shelves. Information was hard to come by. The apostate book that I heard about in my youth was "30 years a watchtower slave".-James Brown.
“...the baptism change, Barry dropped dead in 1999 and by 2004 I could hear/feel the familiar return of yet another round of intense bullying, fear mongering and dumbing down....it took Jaracz a bit longer to make it full circle but as we all know he did manage to restart the wagon-circling, dumb-downed, loyalty button pushing, distrusting, fear mongering stupidity that can be seen in the very WT we are studying this month! I miss the boldness. I miss the magenta songbook too. I miss deeply researched and discussed comments. I miss the independent thinking... we used to smirk at the Catholics for their lack of it (w58 8/1 p. 460 Dawns a New Era for the Irish). I miss the parties. I miss the event atmosphere of the Assemblies. I miss volunteering at the Assemblies. I miss the freedom of thought and speech to openly shrug your shoulders, laugh in the parking lot of a KH and roll your eyes when you disagreed with something non-scriptural. I miss being able to brag about us as JWs......We used to discern when the WTBS was 'hyping'......Now all we have is praise for the Emperors and their ever-changing new clothing " YKNOT.
I have inherited piles of Old WTBTS Lit. Well marked Interlinear. Non-WTBTS BIBLES. - It Strikes me how these Pillars of the Organization (All Elders, Bethelites Etc) would be disfellowshipped today for the marginal notations- AS APOSTATES. “THINKING” is APOSTATE TODAY. The fawning over the Governing Body we see would have been labeled apostasy and "POPE RY" back then.
I remember the GREEN songbook, and the rousing banging on Piano every meeting- by a piano player. I remember the camaraderie of congregation picnics. I remember doing business with "Brothers" whenever possible, and helping each other with jobs. I remember "speculating" at gatherings and J.W.s dragging out Strong’s concordance or an interlinear to debate, "Making sure of all things, holding fast to what is fine", being "noble minded Boreans". Making fun of Catholics for blindly following the Pope with his list of "Rules", the Inquisition, and constantly begging for money. "Religion is a snare and a racket" older ones would laugh..After a few drinks............
When I stepped aside as an elder a few years ago, 21 st century Jehovah’s Witnesses were beginning to remind me more of the fearful 15th Century Catholic Church with Pedophile priests, creature worship, heretic hunting, money grubbing, and Pope worship (Governing Body), than the Jehovah's Witnesses of the 60s.
Altho I am not commenting much, I have to totally agree with Balsamass and Ynot to the point of tears almost. They have touched on a lot of points re changes.
Those were the days when you visited on sundays for lunch or dinners with folks, sat around the table and openly discussed various points of the talk or the tower and didn't have any fear of someone looking sideways to lable you as spiritually sick or humm, close to apostate material.
The assemblies with the meals, everyone pitching in and having a great time, trucking in the portable kitchen materials, servers - yes, it was a lot of work and they used the excuse to get rid of it all so we could all sit in the auditoriums and hear the programs. This at the time they always had speakers placed accordingly to all to hear, kitchen prep- areas... We all knew it was a massive effort but hey, the US Army would visit just to see how good JW's were at feeding thousands in 2 hours!!! At least we set some examples...and there was good fun doing it!
there were the picnics by a lake where the kids had a good time with their parents - forget the technology - visits all the time by everyone, seems like today, no one gets a call unless they are away from meetings for months.. could be dead by that time- nowadays, its get togethers at wedding and funerals...
I was proud to be a JW, and for that paid with most of my family as they were not in the truth, now they are gone and we are standing on an island waiting..... for the next shoe to drop- for more changes to be made, for what some men in NY will direct who have taken the place of Jesus and made themselves our mediator cause we are not of the world that Jesus said he was dying for...to know that the word generation means there could be no end to this system in our time, yet be told that its "here" --"just around the corner"- I am not a doubter that something is coming, and soon it will be 100 years in earthtime that Jesus is supposed to have been ruling from the heavens - a date that was bumped up from 1874 when his rule was to have begun -- but I truly believe that as the world continues to hang on by its fingertips, it could be a long time yet
The perceived stability is gone and replaced with unknowing instability that borders on insanity- and when you throw in a belief system with it, we are still captured
Oh there is so much more but it has all been beaten to death -the only thing is it is good to get it off your chest once in awhile..
James Brown,
I was born-in the same year as you. So many of your memories are the same as mine. I loved the food and could not wait until I could volunteer in its preparation. All the sisters working together. I have a feeling the NYC Health Department visited Yankee Stadium during a convention and raised hell. It tasted good to me as a kid. I recall very unsanitary conditions. Shocking conditions,even for the time. It did not register b/c I was too young. Now I believe I would gag on the food. My extended family was upset when food was no longer provided. There is something about a communal meal.
The WT was overreaching then. Control was the most important thing. My parents would talk about how things were far worse with Rutherford. Later, I found out that Bethelites celebrated Christmas and Witness lit ws recommended as Xmas gifts.
My father and uncles were Bethelites so I grew up with disillusioned men, clinging to a religion b/c they knew not where to go.
I believe I popped out with an antiWitness temperament. Deep down I wanted to believe but the older I got it become harder to go through motions. Educaton spurred me on. As the Witnesses made fun of college students, I was determined to become one. My mom was expelled for the flag salute and determined that I would have the education denied her. So as they made fun of students, I joined the millions making fun of them.
I wish I could say something witty or breathtaking occurred. During my second semester of college, I studied New Testament with Elaine Pagels, who was very charismatic. The class put the nails in the Wt coffin. Before I just knew I could not obey. Most of the brothers were functionally illiterate. I used to dream of a suburban KH. Heck, I was a Beatle worshipping hippie. While still attending the KH, I stood three feet from Mick Jagger singing, "Symapthy for the Devil." I still have the remnants of rose petals he threw at the crowd. I was at Woodstock and the Filmore East. My loyalties were clearly to John Paul, George, and Ringo.
The one thing that my Ivy league educaton emphasized was not knowledge of an academic subject. It was necessary to graduate but not what they sought in students. The prime directive was the ability to ask hard questions. I suppose I had early practice with the Witnesses. When I confide that I was once a Witness, people laugh so hard. I was at every antiwar demo in Ny and DC.
I see incredible changes in doctrine. Jesus I never knew. The one consistent item is control. I recall the UN tirades. The UN was far worse than the United States and Great Britain. In the aftermath of WWII and the HOlocaust, I had no patience for those who did not serve but would use our freedoms without returning anything of value. Other children's father died in the war. Armageddon seemed all too real during the Berlin crisis and Cuba. The end of the world seemed so near. I recall when the Soviet ship was going to be intercepted by the American blockade of Cuba. My mom made me to go to school. We had to memorize every air shelter and practiced how to survive an H-bomb attack when we lived a few miles from Manhattan. I wanted to die with my mom.
So now the UN is worthy of a partnership. It may not be the most essential doctrine but it shows to never belief in any definable and never changing truth. It was very hard for me to believe the Witnesses were a joke b/c of extended family.
Witnesses were here a month ago at my invitation. As I detailed my Witness credentials and the privations were suffered, including prison, I realized it made no difference. I believe these Witnesses would flee at any sustained damage. They thought it was normal for a man to beat his wife and to quote Nuremberg convicted Nazi theologians. I always felt such things were crazy and wrong. Sometimes I feel I was cursed with asking hard questions. They saw God created us so he created me with an intellect to question. No, I will not be deferential. These Witnesses just seem to go with the flow. I imagine that I know more doctrine and history than they do after decades out.
I hated the magenta songbook. MY gm used to play piano at KH. We sang songs from a light green book. One night we heard the book was banned and new weird colored one was in b/c the old book contained songs from such pagans as "beethoven, Handel, and Bach," pronounced "Beat hove en, Handle, and Bash." I just sunk in my seat. The brothers refused to mention that the evil songbook was once glorious and also a WT production.
Do you recall the orange Paradise Lost book? Oh, the baby sacrifices in it. Much lost sleep and nightmares. So many children suffered at the hands of one writer. I suppose the illustrations were worse than the text. Disobey and you will be sacrificed, too.
Reading others’ experiences about their lives in the religion decades ago makes me wonder how much was influenced by local factors. When I first attended meetings, the congregations I associated with were mostly black. The Witnesses I met were warm, friendly and had come out of the churches of Christendom for the most part. They brought their values from the black church with them and grafted them onto the Witness tree. I say this because I saw a marked difference between the atmosphere of a black Witness congregation and a white one.
This is not to downplay the fact that the overall tone and tenor of Witness culture ultimately came down through directives from Brooklyn. But I saw less emphasis on control in the black congregations I knew in Ohio and Alabama as compared to the white ones I associated with in Colorado. Nowadays, with the Governing Body determined to micromanage everything, the ethnic makeup of a congregation may make no difference.
I found the stories of Band on the Run, James Brown and truthlover to be particularly interesting. Some of what they lived through was similar to my own experiences from the 1970s and 1980s. I saw a real effort to build a living, vibrant community in the congregation itself. We certainly did more things together and thought of the congregation as a real family. The words “brother” and “sister” really meant something back then. They have been shorn of that meaning now. The “spiritual paradise” was always an illusion, but at least it made us feel good about being Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now even the illusion is gone with an oppressive police state in its place.
But regardless of how things were in the past, this religion has always been toxic. Its foundation is a lie and its leaders have no interest in seeking the real truth. I will give some of them credit for rediscovering Bible teachings that had been buried and forgotten in other religions, but those discoveries did not come as a result of original study, research and earnest prayer. They were culled from the scholarship of other men and then presented to Witnesses as some kind of spirit-inspired “new light” and proof that the organization had divine sanction and support. So even the “good old days” weren’t that good but compared to what we see now, they were certainly freer.
Quendi
Yknot - that was beautifully stated. Great thread.
The circuit assembly hall used to have full food service. Ceramic plates and white tablecloth. Now, it's just "bring yourself a pb&j".
"You're on your own. We have nothing to offer you."
