Individuals are the exception, groups are the rule. "Man has always been loath to accept his limitations. How much easier it is to deny the truth altogether - to imagine that Nature has given us all the same potential, and that a single act of will can suddently cause all limitations to vanish. As if Nature were just."
Scientific Careers and Race
by Quendi 85 Replies latest social current
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Razziel
"But in the meantime, too many talented people aren't getting the encouragement they need to meet their potential."
This is the key point from Billy. It's not about race or gender. It's about living up to your individual potential. There are soooo many talented people out there who are passed up for whatever reason and undertalented who are accepted for whatever reason. I don't like the good old boy system, but I don't like affirmative action and quotas either. I personally wish names or genders or the school you attended were not on resumes and applications. I want a society based on merit.
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dgp
Stapler:
Racial distinctions are a result of varying evolutionary histories between the different races. If appearances can differ by race, it is possible for elements of personality and intellectual capacity to vary as well. So we shouldn't automatically assume that people from different races have the same ability to contribute towards science, even if they are given the same opportunities to. If you do believe that, you need evidence for it.
Let me analyze this line of reasoning a bit:
The key term in this post is "people from different races". The post lends itself to be understood to mean that "people from Race A" have all the same ability to contribute towards science, and then that ability is invariably higher than that of all "people from Race B". This is racism, pure and simple. If this is not what you meant, please take note.
Would you disagree with this statement?
If appearances do differ within a particular race, it is possible for elements of personality and intellectual capacity to vary as well.
If you disagree, then let me point out that not all whites are smart.
Now, let's have a look at this post from Razziel:
"Man has always been loath to accept his limitations. How much easier it is to deny the truth altogether - to imagine that Nature has given us all the same potential, and that a single act of will can suddently cause all limitations to vanish. As if Nature were just."
Again, the key here is "us all". When you say "us all", do you mean "us Race A" compared to "us Race B"? If that is what you mean, then that is racism.
It is obvious that "a single act of will" cannot possibly overcome "all limitations", but this is fallacious reasoning, since it is taken to mean that "intellectual limitations" cannot be overcome, and then not by a single individual, but by a group of them. It's a way to say that all the members of a group are born stupid and there is just nothing they can do about it. They were born that way.
I can believe that a particular group will be more successful than another at something. But I don't think that is the result of genetic differences. Indians, for example, is very good at coding software. Does that mean Germans are below Indians? Wouldn't the differences be due to the different training those groups receive?
I am afraid that the thread is losing quality. It is moving from an honest analysis of why "people of color" are not as succesful as whites in the United States to "accept that certain groups of people are born losers". That is not an intelligent discussion, for people of any race. -
Band on the Run
Let me give you a white ethnic take:
There were fewer white ethnic male lawyers than black male lawyers when I entered the field.
I attended a ghetto school in Newark, NJ. Corruption was rampant. I never was taught math in math class. Indeed, after college, I had to sit and learn percentages to take the law boards. I won the Biology Award but could not pass Biology 101 in college. The same is true for Chemistry. Several of us wanted to learn French IV. French was the language of diplomacy at the time and was the universal language of educated Europeans. We were told if we sat in French III and did our nonFrench homework, we would get credit for French IV. The principal never considered that we might need French IV skills. No one in my class bothered to sit for SAT Advanced Placement Tests.
My brother won all sorts of science awards yet could not complete freshman science at the University of Chicago.
Science and math is cumulative. It also takes great teachers. My trig teacher did not know the formula for sine and co-sine. He taught my mom's GED prep class. She had to tell him where a numerator and a denominator go. Serious drug use. My Biochemistry teacher was a serious alcoholic and never bothered to come to class. He would dismiss us early when he did show. A classmate had to open the class door for him b/c he was too drink to do it himself. Somehow the school discovered no one was in class after FIVE months. All of a sudden we had to attend class. We were working earlier. A new science teacher moderated discussions about maurijana, abortion, drugs, LSD, the Viet Nam War, the Beatles, the Stones, dating.
75% of my junior high school class flunked a mandatory fifth grade arithmetic test. I grew up with many of the black males. They were very bright. I saw them actually crying. A special class was added that taught fifth grade arithmetic. Believe me, I am such a study nerd. I sat in class, aware I was hopelessly behind middle class kids, bought my own texts, and studied very hard. My grade was always an A. I cried at the time. My parents knew no math or science. Born-ins.
Decades later I remain incensed. They wonder why kids work rather than stay in school. You can't have total chaos and then suddenly appear ready to do hard science and math.
Count how many black large firm partners or investment bankers exist compared to the black population. There was one in my day. One. Real power is on Wall Street. Until they were sued successfully, there were about three women partners and one black partner at the elite NY firms. No one was qualified except white males. It was a fact. Law suit succeeds, governmet presses, Wall St. firms must hire blacks and women. A special fairy appeared over Wall St. Suddenly, women and black lawyers appeared who were just as qualified as white men. Note how many women partners are investment bankers or lawyers today compared to starting level associates.
I say force them!
Perhaps I would have found the cure for cancer.
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GLTirebiter
to imagine that Nature has given us all the same potential, and that a single act of will can suddently cause all limitations to vanish.
I agree that an "act of will" cannot make limitations and differences vanish. But that misses a point that is equally important: that the act of neglect, of not challenging ourselves to find what our limitations are really are, changes imaginary limitations into self-perpetuating, unchallenged constraints. Differences in aptitudes are real, inherent limitations; differences in attitudes are man-made burdens.
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mrsjones5
" I am afraid that the thread is losing quality. It is moving from an honest analysis of why "people of color" are not as succesful as whites in the United States to "accept that certain groups of people are born losers". That is not an intelligent discussion, for people of any race."
And it's a damn shame. I'm black, I don't need someone telling me that I'm inferior, or that my children are inferior just because we have an abundance of melanin (didn't think I knew that word did ya?) in our skin. It makes no sense and I don't and won't accept it just because someone says its so, especially when I look at my brilliant children.
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Razziel
"It's a way to say that all the members of a group are born stupid and there is just nothing they can do about it. They were born that way."
Yes for some people it is, I'm not going to defend that. And that's not what I said. The pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, and I don't think most people are moderate enough to understand what I'm saying or can look at the evidence objectively. They'll either use my words as an excuse for bigotry or dismiss my comments out of hand, so I'm stopping here. It's amazing how we can embrace our differences yet cannot embrace our differences.
Globalism is a great thing because someday perhaps in the distant future, we will all be one race, the human race.
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Band on the Run
Sophisticated affirmative action makes sense. When I worked for the U.S. Senate, one of my jobs was to monitor the most pressing affirmative action ever before the Court. The white plaintiff was incredibly better qualified on merit than the black students. It split the Jewish and Black civil rights coaliton. The biggest fear was that if he lost, civil rights legislation, passed after JFK's death, would be repealed. The Court held he could sue on very narrow grounds, sidestepping the issue for another day. The program was the clunkiest in the country.
Affirmative action goals make sense as long as there is a disparate impact on people of color or religion that has no rational basis. Congress can go further than the text of the Fourteenth Amendment to implement the Fourteenth Amendment. If the population of the United State is 30% of any race and only 3% show up in professions, culture is not at play. Rather, past racism, embodied in slavery, is present.
Blacks were not the only group denied admission to higher education. All the Ivies and comps had actual, express quotas for Jews. Within my lifetime, Columbia Law decided on a less obvious approach. First year classes were held on Sabbath to preclude Jewish students. B/c of this history of quotas, Jews excelled at merit. Crass affirmative action quotas were anathema to them.
Sorry. I have great merit but when you are not taught basic skills, esp. in math and sciences, self study is no remedy. It is very class based, too. I would beg my parents to help me. When my father's help garnered me a D in fifth grade, I quit asking. When you have no money for vacations, sheets, or decent foods, you are unlikely to hire private tutors. My parents were very deferential to my teachers. I would tell all these awful tales. In my neighborhod kids with meritorious cmplts against teachers were beaten routinely.
The teacher was always right. We had a pedophile as a gym teacher. My class never had any problems with gym teachers. We loved them. This jerk starts repeatedly opening the doors to the girls changing room. OMG, the race to get dressed. Such shame when he caught you undressed. OUr teachers knew. We never received an apology. No parents brought up the issue. When he walked into a class in high school, about half of us started laughing/crying at the sight of him.
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botchtowersociety
Contra certain posters, I suspect intelligence is far less inherent (and far more environmentally malleable), than their comments seem to imply. I doubt the Flynn Effect can be explained through a change in inherent genetic potential.
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botchtowersociety
At least we beat Canada! WOOT! LOL
Rank
Country
IQ estimate
1
107
2
106
3 ^
105
4
104
5
103
6 *
102
6 ^
102
6 **
102
6 *
102
10
101
10
101
12
100
12 **
100
12
100
12 **
100
16
99
16
99
16 **
99
19
98
19
98
19 *
98
19
98
19
98
19 *
98
25
97
25
97
25
97
28
96
28 ^
96
28
96
28
96
32 ^
95
32
95
34
94
34
94
36
93
36
93
36 *
93
39
92
40
91
41
90
41 ^
90
41 * *
90
44
89
44
89
44
89
47
87
47 * *
87
47 ^
87
47
87
47
87
52 *
86
52
86
54
85
54
85
56
84
56 *
84
56
84
56
84
60 **
83
60
83
60
83
61 *
81
62
80
63
79
64
78
64
78
64
78
67
77
68
73
68
73
70
72
70
72
70
72
70
72
70
72
75
71
76
67
77
66
77 ^
66
79
65
80
64
81
63
82
59
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