I know this doesn't have much credance in science but there is a possibility that information about you and everything *now" is stored in the same way that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function according to quantum mechanics. This information can't be destroyed. Now I know you and I are not a wave (as far as we know) but I still like to think that the state of the entire universe is recorded due to the way quantum mechanics works, and this will mean there is a lasting legacy even if we do destroy ourselves. Looking forward to chinking that glass at the resautant at the end of the universe.
Perhaps the cruelest lie of all: resurrection of your loved ones
by King Solomon 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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kepler
Reuniting with departed relatives or loved ones after death is inherent in Christian tradition. Near death experiences of those returned from comatose states seem to give some support to the idea too. But as Baby Doc Duvalier once said about human rights in Haiti, he was in favor, "But they had to be on [his] terms." After the son of my ex passed away, and despite the fact that the elder who presided at the funeral had blamed everything that had happened to her son on her, she made it clear that that was when she decided she would return. Shortly after making that known, I could see by the look in her eye as she spoke of being "reunited" that that was what it was all about. Whether she remembered doctrine or someone had slipped her that message, it was never clear. Obviously she thought reunion was very conditional and had something to do with her being a great pioneer. As time went by, the bar seemed to raise ever higher. Now it's easier to reach people in North Korea.
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King Solomon
TT2C said:
Interesting thread...So just to play devils advocate here for a moment.
Pausing just a moment to appreciate the irony of someone claiming to just be PLAYING as a Devil's advocate, on an apostate site, LOL! I think if you asked a JW, we're ALL real-live Devil's advocates!
How can you prove that their claim of ressurection is a lie in the confines of bible reality/fantasy? More specifically, what did they change in the bible in making the NWT to support this idea of ressurection? Because John 5, Isaiah, Corithians and other texts do speak of a some sort of ressurection, albeit just very scant on the details.
Me personally? I don't even need to go that deep, as all a reasonable person needs to realize the Bible is nonsense can be found in the first 10 chapters of Genesis. I think of the statue of Nebuchadnezzer's dream, with the feet of clay: you take out the foundation, and the entire structure comes toppling down. As goes the OT, the NT follows: it's a sequel (work of fan fiction), so down it goes.
I tend to approach all of Genesis on the basis of:
1) exposing the inherent flaws contained within the accounts, then,
2) showing the likely REAL inspiration to explain the basis for the story.
You can do this with factual analysis of Biblical cosmology/creation story (eg plants made day BEFORE sun: uh, no one heard of photosynthesis?), the flaws of the Adam & Eve account, Noah's ark story.
Historical roots for creation are found in Sumerian myths, A&E similar to others (esp noting similarly to Pandora/Prometheus, but others), and Noah with Epic of Gilgamesh.
If you cannot see the nonsense in Genesis, then you're really not trying....
I'm sure others will be willing to get into the historical basis of resurrection, but that's something for the Leolaias or Ehrmans to get into...
Ballistic says:
I know this doesn't have much credance in science but there is a possibility that information about you and everything *now" is stored in the same way that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function according to quantum mechanics. This information can't be destroyed. Now I know you and I are not a wave (as far as we know) but I still like to think that the state of the entire universe is recorded due to the way quantum mechanics works, and this will mean there is a lasting legacy even if we do destroy ourselves. Looking forward to chinking that glass at the resautant at the end of the universe.
Yeah, interesting theoretical possibilities, but it's not present reality (and not likely to be for quite some time). I tend to only worry about things on the event horizon of next week.... :)
Cedars said:
What REALLY gets to me is that other close family members are clinging to their faith almost entirely out of a desire to see someone again whom they will never see again anyway.
Yeah, I've been thinking about this one. You can imagine a current JW fearing that they would get killed in Armageddon if they didn't stay in, and their family member gets resurrected, and lives in the New System with the faithful survivors without them... Can you imagine the other survivors saying, "Oh, sorry Papa, but X didn't make it, as he screwed up" (and Papa looks down, with disappointment that the DFed person didn't stay faithful) . The thought of that scenario probably keeps some in. It would be like throwing a family party, but knowing you weren't invited because you screwed up.
If you think of it, all DF/DA are currently living with the scenario that all active JWs are afraid of: being the outcast, shunned, the one on the outside, who if dead, cannot even look in....
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Sulla
The resurrection of the body is the foundational Christian message. JWs make a hash of it for a number of reasons, of course, but this is the thing they get the least wrong. Anger seems misplaced somehow...
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King Solomon
Sulla says:
The resurrection of the body is the foundational Christian message. JWs make a hash of it for a number of reasons, of course, but this is the thing they get the least wrong. Anger seems misplaced somehow...
Wha? Very few Xian faiths believe in resurrection to an Earthly paradise... And where are you detecting anger? You apparently must be reading into something.... I'm quite happy with the choices I made (raised as JW from 6-12, but never baptized; went to college, career, etc).
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moshe
JWs are not the only religion that teaches belief in a resurrection.
I think they teach something that could be described as re-creation- or re-animation of atoms that never belonged to you, into YOU again- the bible doesn't explain how God does this.
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Sulla
King, let's table the somewhat nuanced discussion of precisely how jacked up the JW teaching of a paradise Earth really is. That said, the central Christian teaching has always, always, been the physical resurrection of Christ and, by extension, the physical resurrection of everybody. Lots of XJWs miss this for understandable reasons, but them's the facts. That is the whole point, after all, of the story of Thomas not believing Jesus was resurrected until he actually felt the physical wounds in his physical body.
moshe, the JWs are, indeed, very confused about what a resurrection would actually mean. That said, I don't think the identity of specific atoms is a big problem.
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clarity
Interesting comments .... Moshe touched on apoint that has always irked me.
We talk about other religions believing in a resurrection ... they also (mainly)
believe in a SOUL that lives on after death! Something for god to work with and
re surrect a new body.
Jw's believe in resurrection but NOTHING survives death! Nothing!
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Seems to me, that what the jw's would have is a re creation ... not resurrection!(nothing left to resurrect)
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If then, it is a recreation ... the body that is running around looking 'like' you ....
isn't in fact you! It is a new somebody else, who just looks like you used to look.
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So as jw's we would miss out on living again anyway. You are still dust and a new guy
just takes your place!
That's how I see it would turn out ... if in fact all this nonsense were true!
Hope this is understandable .....clarity
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moshe
always, been the physical resurrection of Christ
In Jesus case, there was an intact body to work with, unlike people who have been cremated or totally decayed away. - with bones returning to the dust.
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King Solomon
FWIW, Zoroastrianism included the concept of a bodily resurrection.
Sulla said:
King, let's table the somewhat nuanced discussion of precisely how jacked up the JW teaching of a paradise Earth really is. That said, the central Christian teaching has always, always, been the physical resurrection of Christ and, by extension, the physical resurrection of everybody.
ANY claim of a resurrection hope is JACKED up, since the idea of a soul is another figment of the imagination, with no basis on which to base such a belief. It's right up there alongside leprechauns, Space Ghosts, terrestrial ghosts, demons, angels, spirits (Holy or otherwise).
A belief in souls, spirits, etc. falls into the category of fallacy called "appeal to utter incredulity": it's a claim SOOO preposterous, so utterly improbable, and beyond all natural life experiences, that it MUST be true. Why? Because no one could make it up! Therefore, it MUST be true! There's a whole lot of wishing going on...
Lots of XJWs miss this for understandable reasons, but them's the facts. That is the whole point, after all, of the story of Thomas not believing Jesus was resurrected until he actually felt the physical wounds in his physical body.
Interesting, as Jesus' bag of magic tricks supposedly included raising the dead (Lazarus, plus a few others); why could he not raise himself, too?
(My favorite "miracle" Jesus performed was pulling a coin out of a fishes mouth. I had an uncle who pulled our noses off our faces, and pulled coins out of our ears.)