Ray Franz is still a slave (page 2)

gumby

don't trust other peoples claims that they are chosen by God unless they can show you unrefutable evidence, otherwise you risk being taken for a ride again.

Yes that's right folks! Before you believe anyone...make sure they have a picture of God or a tape recording, or a credable witness to PROVE it!
In other words....don't believe anything without proof. Never mind faith.....proof is what you need.

Never fly in a plane unless you actually SEE the pilot! Don't trust some dipsy stewardes that tells you he is in the cockpit.....unless you SEE him. Don't be so gullable!

Also don't go to another country on a trip! It could be a lie and dosen't exist. All of the people who write about these places and those who claim they have seen ...could be liars and trying to dupe you!

rhett

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I didn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I through the shit out with the toilet water.

I don't need to fight
To prove I'm right
I don't need to be forgiven.

Amazing

The above points are interesting ... and deserve some serious consideration. My own view is that I have trouble with the Bible and with many things said and done by God ... or attributed to him.

At the same time, I find Jesus Christ a compelling person, who's words and actions comdemn many of the types of religions then and today. Christ is an enlightening person ... whereas, the modern day Watchtower Governing Body, of Catholic College of Cardinals, or Mormon 12 Apostles to be something far beyond anything Christ ever talked about.

Faith is personal. Relationship with God, as one understands and perceives She/He/It, is personal ... and that is about as far as I can go with any type of religion.

Faith is not founded in science, or rules of evidence, or in rock solid truth ... though I would love that, if we had all truth and evidence, and all the necessarily proof ... faith would be reduced to one thing: Personal experience with God ... like a child has faith in their parents love and care.

I do not see Ray as an unwitting slave, anymore than Paul was unwitting slave ... it is a choice, a personal determination to believe or not to believe ... but the Christian faith assigns many attributes to Christians, such as children, grown adults, adopted, priests, etc., including being slaves of God and Christ ... the difference is not being slaves to men.

If God does not exist, and the entire world of many faiths are to be pitied as the Apostle Paul stated ... and that is true ...

I am still struggling with faith, with God, and what I need to do as a person ... so I cannot judge one way or another ... but I can't say anything about Ray Franz's faith, because in the end, it is between him and God.

happy man

Amazing. intresting points A, i have respekt for your points, but i must say that Rays book is confusing for me, yes i have read it.
I find it littel remarkebel that he arguments that he was no apostate, and have no other wius than the goc body, and sure not have oowne bibelstudies, but at the same time hes book is a prof that he realy was a apoatate, he was not beleving what gov body say, and he have diffrent oppinon,and even say inn the end that they was false profhets.
for me he try to stand on two chairs. Trying to defend himself ,and at the same time accuse the gov body, on a very cobfusing way, thats my conclusion when i read the book.
I must ask you one more qestion, did you say that you was one of the 144000, or have i been mistaken.
If so, how did you now that??

sleepy

Gumby

"Yes that's right folks! Before you believe anyone...make sure they have a picture of God or a tape recording, or a credable witness to PROVE it!
In other words....don't believe anything without proof. Never mind faith.....proof is what you need.

Never fly in a plane unless you actually SEE the pilot! Don't trust some dipsy stewardes that tells you he is in the cockpit.....unless you SEE him. Don't be so gullable!"

Lets see.You need to fix your car but don't know much about them.Three different people offer you and help.
One is a mechanic who has fixed problems on your car for many years and has a good deal of knowledge about cars.
Another claims to be a expert mechanic, the best in the world , but you have only just met him and know nothing about him and he cannot provide proof that he is one.
Another is not a mechanic but claims that he has been sent my God , who told him in a dream how to fix cars , even though he's never done it before.

Who do you choose?
I hope its the mechanic you already know and have evidence that hes good.

Maybe the other mechanic really is good, but what if he isn't, why take the risk.If he can come up with evidence then fair enough.
But why doen't he have any?
The third?Would you really get him to do it?
Do you believe everyone who claims to get a message from God?

In life we try to make the best decsisons by weighing the evidence.
We see planes fly, most of us have been in a plane.It is reasonable to trust that there is a piolt flying the plane.
Maybe its a trick this time.But life is too short to check every little thing out.
With God ,we don't see direct evidence of Gods existance every day.
Some argue that we as humans and animals are the evidence.
But other say they have good reason to doubt it and can provide evidence for that.Why not listen?
If we have faith in something without evidence to back it up we only have ourselves to blame if it all goes horribly wrong.

gumby

Sleepy "With God ,we don't see direct evidence of Gods existance every day

You used a good illustration with the mechanic thing sleepy, and in this scenario I would go with the PROVEN mechanic.

Believers DO see direct evidence with God. We see creation, design, deeper bible study that convinces us it was not written from men's ideas.

This is where faith comes in to believers...not visual PROOF of the person of God.
I do not feel BLIND faith is sound. That is being gullable.

It must be based on something that gives you REASON to believe....such as the reasons I just mentioned above.

SixofNine

Can I have list of these infallible men? I have never had the pleasure of meeting anyone who is infallible—or is that your view of scientists?

Nemisis, are you so ensconsed in your own side of the argument that you don't recognize a typo by a fallible man, albiet a fallible man who kicks your ass at every turn?

You wrote an entire paragraph rebutting a two letter typo! Jesus Christ! . If you can't even communicate well enough to know by now that Abaddon does not consider men, even men in white coats (that happens to be your rediculous idea of a non-believers god, btw) to be fallible, you are as pathetic as your arguments.

Your assignment now is to go back and re-read every argument that you and Abaddon have ever had. Don't pay too much attention to your words (as I think this may be your trouble) pay LOTS of attention to Abaddon. Actually listen this time.

Then go write on the chalkboard "Abbadon does not consider men to be infallible, and any idiot should know that". Continue writing until armaggedon.

I've kinda figured out your problem, btw. Your thick skull does not allow you to imagine that anyone actually thinks and feels fundamentally different from you. Therefore, you assume that all these non-believers have some sort of "faith", just in something other than what believers do.

Disabuse yourself of that notion, because in regards to all these long arguments, you cannot learn another thing until you learn that people can indeed, have NO faith.

Sleepy, I agree with your original premise. I do think though, that being a slave to your own fertile imagination (and a very non-specific book) is far better than being a slave to a mean-spirited, 50 years-behind-the-times religion.

BluesBrother

Fascinating comments, if one ignores the flames.

In reality everyone follows something. I am sure that God must have designed and built this world. To follow a blind evolution is -to me - a much bigger leap of blind faith. Yet people do that.
Since I stopped following WT reasoning I have become more tolerant of others views.
But if Jesus did not say the things recorded ,who did? Somebody wrote his sayings of blindingly brilliant phlosophy . Lets follow him.

SixofNine

BluesBrother, why do you say the things you say? For instance, this, "To follow a blind evolution...". How does someone "follow a blind evolution"?

And this, "In reality everyone follows something". How so?

And this, "But if Jesus did not say the things recorded ,who did? " Indeed. The very fact that that is an intelligent question gives one pause.

What would you say is so "blindingly brilliant" of Jesus' philosophy?

Nemesis

SixofNine:

You wrote an entire paragraph rebutting a two letter typo

Actually it was two sentences, I’m sure you are proud at making it into four paragraphs of your own—oh the irony!

Your thick skull does not allow you to imagine that anyone actually thinks and feels fundamentally different from you

If you had actually read the post you would see the exact opposite, the vast majority of the post is about everyone on the planet being different and no one having a superior point of view [except you of course]. If you learned to read instead of freaking out and being so offensive you might have realized that—then again I doubt it.

Chill out SixofNine, you might actually live longer.

Ray Franz is still a slave

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