Lesson for 'You Know'

by Nemesis 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    You Know:
    I feel you need some balanced education in the scriptures. I have posted this here as the other thread is going off on a tangent, my point is from that thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23284&site=3&page=2
    In regard to my quote from Matthew 11:20–24 about those in Capernaum being more wicked than those in Sodom, and also the fact that they had seen some of the most powerful works and miracles of Jesus. Jesus said of them after they did not repent, “Down to Hades you will come” proving that they would get yet another chance in the resurrection, due to Jesus’ immense mercy and compassion.

    My illustration of those alive now was to demonstrate to you that no one on the planet has seen Jesus raise the dead and perform many other miracles today. They have not had this immense witness to them at all, or anything remotely close to it. They therefore deserve far more mercy than those in Capernaum. Even if many would die at Armageddon for their sins, these also would be in line for a resurrection far more that those in Capernaum, who Jesus directly said would get one due to them being in Hades and not Gehenna.

    Merely being killed by God is not prerequisite for eternal destruction. Many in Old Testament times were killed and will also get a resurrection as they are in Sheol, the same place as the good went also.

    “And it came about that as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them began to be split apart. And the earth proceeded to open its mouth and to swallow up them and their households and all humankind that belonged to Ko'rah and all the goods. So down they went, and all who belonged to them, alive into She'ol, and the earth went covering them over, so that they perished from the midst of the congregation. And all the Israelites who were round about them fled at the screaming of them, for they began to say: "We are afraid that the earth may swallow us up!" And a fire came out from Jehovah and proceeded to consume the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense.”—Numbers 16:31–35 NWT

    Other scriptures also confirm this: Job 24:19; Psalm 9:17; 1 Kings 2:5; Job 14:13; Job 17:16; Ecclesiastes 9:7–10; 1 Kings 2:5; Isaiah 14:9–11; Ezekiel 31:16; Ezekiel 32:21; Matthew 11:20–24; Revelation 20:13.

    Look at the example of Manasseh: “And he did evil in the sight of Jehovah, like the abominations of the nations that Jehovah had dispossessed from before the children of Israel. And he built again the high places that Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars to Baal and made an Asherah, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them. And he built altars in the house of Jehovah, of which Jehovah had said, In Jerusalem will I put my name. And he built altars to all the host of heaven in both courts of the house of Jehovah. And he caused his son to pass through the fire, and used magic and divination, and appointed necromancers and soothsayers: he wrought evil beyond measure in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger. And he set the graven image of the Asherah that he had made, in the house of which Jehovah had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever; neither will I any more cause the foot of Israel to wander away from the land that I gave their fathers; if they will only take heed to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them. But they would not hearken, and Manasseh led them astray to do more evil than the nations that Jehovah had destroyed from before the children of Israel…And Manasseh shed very much innocent blood, till he had filled Jerusalem [with it] from one end to another; beside his sin with which he made Judah to sin, in doing evil in the sight of Jehovah.”—2 Kings 21:2-16 J.N.Darby’s Translation 1890

    And yet when you read on, he repented and was forgiven by God! You Know, If God can forgive someone like that then he can forgive virtually anyone for his or her sins, as even Manasseh had not committed the unforgivable sin of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

    The scriptures in Hebrews, about sinning against the Holy Spirit, were directed at the spirit anointed Christians; who not only knew all about God and his purposes, but also were anointed with his Holy Spirit. If they then rebelled after this underserved kindness, there would be no hope left for them. (Hebrews 6:4-8) The only others clearly identified as going to Gehenna were the Jewish Pharisees, who not only saw divine miracles, and acts of the Holy Spirit, but wilfully opposed its operation, and had a wealth of scriptural and prophetic evidence that Jesus was the messiah, which they ignored, and also sinned against the Holy Spirit in full knowledge slandering Jesus and the Holy Spirit accrediting their operation to Satan.

    You Know, virtually no one today is in that category, so even if 6 billion do die at Armageddon as punishment, the vast majority will come back for a proper chance after Armageddon as they would not have sinned against the Holy Spirit, and Romans 6:23 would come into operation; they have paid the price for sin which is death, and so would then get a resurrection and a full opportunity to know God and Jesus under his reign during judgment day.—Matthew 24:31–46

    You Know, you need to realise that that God does not change, and in fact it is Jesus who will judge us (John 5:22) and he clearly stated even those who saw his supernatural miracles in Capernaum and did not respond will get another chance in the resurrection during judgement day. (Matthew 11:20–24) They, along with all those destroyed by God in the past who are now in Sheol will come back. This would include all those who died in the flood, as there is no scriptural evidence that they are in Gehenna, or that they sinned against the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus’ blood was not also shed for them.

    It is not only distasteful that you set yourself up as a god of judgement, hiding behind the skirt of the Watch Tower “mother”, but you feel God will abandon his love and mercy clearly shown in the past by the fact that even the wicked will get another chance. You ignore the fact that Jesus clearly showed those who didn’t repent in Capernaum will come back again, how much more those alive now who have seen no miracles or proofs!

    I will leave you will one scripture, your lack of love may mean the demise of your own eternal chances if you don’t learn to be more merciful:

    “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.”—Matthew 7:1, 2

  • You Know
    You Know

    There is absolutely nothing that you can teach me about God's judgments, not because I am unteachable, but because, for a fact, you do not at all know what Jehovah's judgments are. As I pointed out in the previous thread, you fit the description of those whom Paul described at 1 Timothy 1:6, where he wrote: "Certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions."

    Judgment Day is a unique event. Jehovah has in fact already judged the ruler of this world and the system over which he presides as god. Jehovah's judgment is that the whole system is wicked from the top to the bottom and must therefore be destroyed. However, what is the basis upon which each individual is judged? According to Jesus' own words, one aspect of how the nations are judged is by how each one treats his spiritual brothers. Accordingly, those who do not recognize Jesus' brothers are judged worthy of being destroyed by the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. Elsewhere in scripture it is made apparent that the Devil and his demon angels have received the judgment of everlasting destruction. That means, then, that the goat-like individuals that are spoken of as sharing the Devil's judgment, by being thrown into the symbolic fire prepared for the demons, represents their complete and utter destruction as well.

    Furthermore, the 12th chapter of Daniel refers to the tribulation period and says that there are those who go off into "indefinitely lasting abhorrence." That is in contrast with those who are given "indefintely lasting life." That means that those who are killed during the time when the king of the North "will certainly go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and devote many to destruction," will not receive a resurrection.

    Furthermore, what should be of particular interest to apostate JWs and their friends is Jehovah's predetermined judgments of apostates. 2 Peter 2:3 says: "But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering."

    That then is one aspect of how Jehovah's judgment will be determined. It is not my judgment. It is God's. There is another side of it, but that should suffice to prove that you do not at all know what you are talking about. / You Know

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    You Know:
    I see you have ignored all the scriptural points of mercy and location of the dead. And is it really necessary to go on diversion ad hominem attacks all the time?

    You also forget that those described in Judgment day, are those alive after Armageddon [including the resurrected], not before—have you forgotten that the Watch Tower has realised it’s false teaching and changed it to the correct post Armageddon period?

    Furthermore, the 12th chapter of Daniel refers to the tribulation period and says that there are those who go off into "indefinitely lasting abhorrence." That is in contrast with those who are given "indefinitely lasting life." That means that those who are killed during the time when the king of the North "will certainly go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and devote many to destruction," will not receive a resurrection.
    I like the way you totally miss out verse 2 of Daniel 12 “And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.” This parallels perfectly with what Jesus said with the sheep and goats after Armageddon, not before. (Matthew 11:20–24) Thus showing that Jesus will not eternally judge anyone until they have all had a full and comprehensive education, and proof of God’s kingdom—thereafter if they reject all the proof before them, and act wickedly, they will be destroyed forever.

    Why are you so keen to see billions of people obliterated, and yet you refuse to acknowledge Jesus’ abundant mercy and love for even those in Capernaum, who had seen the works of God—works that none of us have seen today! You almost seem to have contempt for Jesus’ mercy and feel if you ignore the scriptures long enough the Watch Tower’s programming will just kick in and make you feel all superior and smug at the annihilation of billons of people, the vast majority who don’t have a clue who Jesus really is, or what he really stands for. How on earth can they therefore have sinned against the Holy Spirit?

    Also can you please stop insulting me and calling me “apostate”, as I am a Christian and not a godless ‘antichrist’ or ‘man of lawlessness’ as the Bible describes apostates. Simply leaving the Watch Tower organisation does not make me an apostate by any measure as far as the Bible is concerned. How would you like it if everyone here referred to you as a child molester? Be careful whom you label You Know, as slander is not a redeeming quality for a Christian.

    I feel sorry that you are so determined to have a closed mind, and act in such a judgemental way and then slyly try and offload this onto God and Jesus.

    I do like you as You Know, as you make me laugh with your posts, I will say a prayer for you for God to open your eyes.

  • You Know
    You Know
    see you have ignored all the scriptural points of mercy and location of the dead. And is it really necessary to go on diversion ad hominem attacks all the time?

    I didn't ignore the scriptural points. They simply are not applicable, that's all. Nor did I attack you personally. I merely pointed out, and rightly so, that you don't know what you are talking about. That's not an ad hominem attack.

    You also forget that those described in Judgment day, are those alive after Armageddon [including the resurrected], not before—have you forgotten that the Watch Tower has realised it’s false teaching and changed it to the correct post Armageddon period?
    Not necessarily. Judgement day begins with the tribulation and extends all the way down to the end of the 1,000 years.

    I like the way you totally miss out verse 2 of Daniel 12 “And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.
    No, I referred to those who receive everlasting life in contrast with those who don't.

    This parallels perfectly with what Jesus said with the sheep and goats after Armageddon, not before.
    That's utter nonsense. Christ's brothers are not even on the earth after Amrageddon, and even if they were, they would not be suffering imprisonment or deprivation. So, again, I must point out that you don't know what you are talking about.

    Why are you so keen to see billions of people obliterated, and yet you refuse to acknowledge Jesus’ abundant mercy and love for even those in Capernaum, who had seen the works of God—works that none of us have seen today!
    I am not. I wish you were right. But, since you are not, I am obligated to point that out.

    You almost seem to have contempt for Jesus’ mercy...
    I don't have contempt for Jesus' mercy. I have contempt for apostates who want to pretend that they are teachers of Jehovah's law and judgments.

    Also can you please stop insulting me and calling me “apostate”, as I am a Christian and not a godless ‘antichrist’ or ‘man of lawlessness’ as the Bible describes apostates. Simply leaving the Watch Tower organisation does not make me an apostate by any measure as far as the Bible is concerned.
    I don't care what your personal preferences are. If you are a former JW and you speak against Jehovah's Witnesses, then you are an apostate. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

    I feel sorry that you are so determined to have a closed mind, and act in such a judgemental way and then slyly try and offload this onto God and Jesus.
    You are merely feeling the same sort of frustration that all apostates have felt who have tried to wreck my faith. But, hey, you gave it your best shot. LOL / You Know
  • 2SYN
    2SYN

    'Spoof' would be a better word than 'faith', YouKnow!

    The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age

  • Celia
    Celia

    Reading YK's posts is like reading "explications" of fairy tales....
    Doesn't matter what explanations and interpretations you come up with, it's just an exercise with words and ideas and opinions, because what it is based on is all a tale anyway, a legend...
    Even if the Bible is the word of God and some deeper meaning is hidden in there.... I just find it is presumptuous to declare that you are the only one understanding the meaning of the Bible texts !

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    You Know:

    Can you give me some Biblical answers to a few questions?

    1. How can 6 billion people alive now have sinned against the Holy Spirit if they know far less, and have seen nothing of Jesus’ miracles and proof like those in Capernaum did?
    Especially the fact that those who in Capernaum personally witnessed supernatural miracles from God’s own son, and still they didn’t repent or accept him, and furthermore they cannot have sinned against the Holy Spirit as Jesus said they would come back for a second chance due to them going down to Hades, not Gehenna.—Matthew 11:20–24; Revelation 20:13.

    2. Can you also tell me why you, one who so passionately defends the Watch Tower organisation, is so unenlightened on their “new light” in regard to the ‘sheep and goats’ during Judgment Day?
    You said: “Judgement day begins with the tribulation and extends all the way down to the end of the 1,000 years.” But You Know, the scriptures tell us clearly that Jesus arrives after the tribulation, and this is when he sits on the throne and Judgement Day begins: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light... And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24: 29, 30) “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”—Matthew 25:31–33

    Even the Watch Tower society now realises this, that’s why they changed their teaching on the ‘sheep and goats’ from pre-Armageddon, to post-Armageddon. Also notice that in Daniel the eternal judgements made, are after “those asleep in the ground of dust...will wake up” (Daniel 12:2) Unless we see a mass resurrections now it has to be after the tribulation and Armageddon.

    There is nothing in the Bible to say those who die in the tribulation, or in the past flood, or from some other past act of God, that they will not come back and be given a full comprehensive education and proof of who God, Jesus, and his kingdom really are—only then will they be judge as worthy of life or eternal death.

    It’s so sad you are not willing to let the Bible and Jesus’ loving examples speak to you directly, not only that you are way behind your own man made organisation’s doctrines—The Watch Tower Bible and Tract society!

    You also set up another major problem: If you feel your Watch Tower God is so merciless, and ignoring for a moment the large body of previous scriptures that contradict you that I have posted. If God were only going to save those actively associated with the Watch Tower organisation, then that would be [roughly] 6,000,000 persons, which is 0.1% of the world’s population. If this is God’s judgement on humanity, and all the tests that are there to push us away from him are just and fair, then he must also apply an exacting and perfect equivalent testing to all those resurrected after Armageddon. This would leave a major problem, say 15 billion came back for an example, then after the final test at the end of the thousands years, God would have to somehow apply the exact proportionate testing and evaluating to make all justice equal. Those alive being ‘perfect’ would be neither here, nor there, as God would have to judge with the same severity then, as he will now, which would lead to the major problem of only 0.1% of humanity surviving the test [excluding Armageddon survivors]. So 0.1% of 15 billion would be 15 million persons, not exactly a “fully populated paradise world” as the Watch Tower society teaches, is it? If more than 0.1% survived that would show massive bias in the testing to those alive now, and yet that is exactly what the Watch Tower society teaches.

    I also see the extra inequality the Watch Tower teaches, for example the 0.1% is only 1 in 1,000 survivors now. So if you had 1,000 average people alive now, statistically only one would get through Armageddon if only the JWs get saved. But this is where it gets interesting. If those same 1,000 ordinary people all died in accidents for example before Armageddon, then the Watch Tower teaches they will come back in the resurrection, and get 1,000 years to conform, not 10 minutes on the doorstep with some inept JW. They will get 1,000 years in “paradise” according to the Watch Tower’s doctrine; also they get no evil people, no demons, no corruption, no health problems, no financial problems etc. and a relatively easy test at the end, as they are then perfect. The Watch Tower acknowledges that some may rebel in the final test, but still claims the earth will have a majority who stay faithful—here are some quotes:

    1990 Watchtower, March 15 p. 31 “We can be sure that it will be much different when millions upon millions are resurrected during the Judgment Day. Then Satan will not be free to snatch away seeds of truth sown in their hearts. They will not have to cope with persecution or the anxieties of the present wicked system. They will be taught in a righteous environment, surrounded by the miraculous work of God, including the resurrection of the dead and the healing of the nations. Granted, some will not respond even then. (Compare John 11:45-53) But there is good reason to think that the majority will get the sense of the word, respond to it, and be saved.”

    1996 Watchtower, February 1, p. 21 “The great tribulation will clear away the old system and all who refuse to ‘get the sense of’ the Kingdom. But the millions of ‘great tribulation’ survivors and the billions who will be resurrected will inherit Kingdom blessings without end in the restored earthly Paradise.”

    Spot the difference? If you get run over by a bus now, you, according to the Watch Tower will be showered with love and mercy, resurrected to a 1,000 years in a fluffy candy coated paradise to repent in, and will most probably breeze through the final test and live forever. But if that bus doesn’t hit you, all you will get is a bumbling JW on your door, and 10 minutes to respond and then eternal obliteration, only 1 in 1,000 chance of survival, with no mercy at all! And they call that justice? 1,000 year paradise for one, 10 minutes and Gehenna for the other, and all based on a mere accident! Can’t they see the disgusting inequality of judgments and opportunity they are preaching?

    I could go on and on... but hey—there’s plenty more for another day!

    So You Know, can you answer my two questions above please—only Bible answers are acceptable.

  • Bang
    Bang
    How can 6 billion people alive now have sinned against the Holy Spirit if they know far less, and have seen nothing of Jesus’ miracles and proof like those in Capernaum did?

    Who knows how many live in that state but some people, like those pharisees, can't accept Grace, the Holy Spirit, the idea of not somehow earning your way in God's favour. It's blasphemy to God to maintain that He would trade 'love', like a beast. They are unable to truly accept forgiveness, because they think they have to do something, or perhaps they have done something - and so worship the image (not real of course) of a beast, a trader (traditor - see Judas - Esau & Judas suffered loss in an imaginary trade).

    "God trades love" is blasphemy - JWism.
    "God gives to the good and evil" - is christianity, and many others.

    Bang

  • You Know
    You Know
    1. How can 6 billion people alive now have sinned against the Holy Spirit if they know far less, and have seen
    nothing of Jesus’ miracles and proof like those in Capernaum did?

    That's a red herring on your part. Sinning against the holy spirit is not why the people of this world are sentenced to the fires prepared for the Devil and his angels. Some people forfiet their right to a resurrection because of oppostion to the direction of God's holy spirit, but the judgment of Judgment Day is another matter. When this world goes down people are going to be judged by how they respond during the tribulation phase. Those who look to humans for salvation will be judged unworthy of Jehovah's salvation. Those who trust Jehovah and support the embattled brothers of Christ during that critical period will be judged worhty of salvation. That's the basis for judgment when this world ends.

    But You Know, the scriptures tell us clearly that Jesus arrives after the tribulation, and this is when he sits on the throne and Judgement Day begins:
    Your error is in imaging that "after the tribulation" situates the judgment after Armageddon as well. It doesn't. The cutting short of the tribulation simply means that there is an interim period between the initial phase of the tribulation and the final confrontation on the battlefield of Armageddon. During that interval is when the judgment takes place. This is evident from the tribulation on Jerusalem. It began when the Romans surrounded the city in 66 C.E. but then that part of the tribulation was cut short when the Roman legions withdrew. Then the final judgment came in 70 when Titus returned and destroyed the city.

    It’s so sad you are not willing to let the Bible and Jesus’ loving examples speak to you directly, not only that you are way behind your own man made organisation’s doctrines—The Watch Tower Bible and Tract society!
    I have consistently demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about.

    Spot the difference? If you get run over by a bus now, you, according to the Watch Tower will be showered with love and mercy, resurrected to a 1,000 years in a fluffy candy coated paradise to repent in, and will most probably breeze through the final test and live forever.
    You are stumbling because you have not really been able to think through how God's judgment is going to be determined. God just doesn't show up and start killing innocent people. The initial phase of the tribulation is going to be the most terrifying catastrophe that has ever befallen humankind---most likely involving the use of weapons of mass destruction. The continued existence of the entire race is going to be in question. When that occurs, then, each and every individual will have to make a decision that will determine their everlasting judgment. The issue of Jehovah's soveriegnty will forcibly and starkly confront each of us. If we support the human schemes to revive and perpetuate the present system at that time, then, we will have demonstrated that we are unalterably opposed to Jehovah's rule and therefore forfiet his protection when he brings the coup de grace at Armageddon. / You Know
  • TR
    TR

    Hi Nemesis,

    I enjoy reading your posts. However, You Know has a mental problem. He's been arguing his bogus ideas for YEARS with no sign of let-up. Many, MANY have tried before to help him see the "light". There is something seriously wrong with YK, because as we all know, a real JW would not spend this time and effort on this sort of forum. YK supports the WTS, yet for years he's blathered on and on, on forums like this one. A person might think he's open-minded enough to converse with us. But I truly believe he is delusional and in serious need of mental help.

    TR

    I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
    --Robert Frost, 1935

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