Moshe received proof of a spiritual afterlife in 1999

by moshe 73 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Jon, I agree with you.

    Yes, the OT is clear on this.

    Words other than nephesh in the Old Testament are used when referring to departed souls, such as rephaim, often translated in the English as 'shades' or 'healers.' Rephaim are ghosts according to Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testament Words (Vine's) and very much in existence according to the Old Testament as seen by Isaiah 14:9-10 (ESV), which completely disproves the Jehovah's Witnesses' theory that only extinction follows man at death. In speaking of the king of Babylon, Isaiah wrote:

    9 Sheol beneath is stirred up
    to meet you when you come;
    it rouses the shades to greet you,
    all who were leaders of the earth;
    it raises from their thrones
    all who were kings of the nations.
    10 All of them will answer
    and say to you:
    ‘ You too have become as weak as we!
    You have become like us!’

    This passage in and of itself proves the Jehovah's Witnesses wrong. Here, the shades obviously exist and were not extinguished into nothingness. They even speak, and therefore think. The Watchtower leadership is fully aware of this insurmountable obstacle to their theology. To circumvent the problem they translate rephaim as “those impotent in death,” but this does not help them in the slightest because it only describes one condition or attribute of the departed, that they are in a weakened condition, as seen by the answer the shades gave - that the king of Babylon would become weak like they had become. Nothing in these verses remotely suggests that these rephaim, or shades, don't exist; it's impossible, even if the shades are impotent with respect to their powers. Impotent does not mean annihilated, it does not mean nonexistent. Furthermore, Almighty God, YHWH, does not lie; his word is truth (Titus 1:2; John 17:17). If shades do not exist in the nether world of Sheol, he would never convey to his people that they did, and that they spoke and are conscious. God is telling us in no uncertain terms that an immaterial, conscious entity survives the death of the body.

    That the departed dead spirits in Sheol are conscious and communicate and think is reiterated at Isaiah 29:4 (KJV) where God warned the inhabitants of Jerusalem of their impending destruction, writing through the prophet, “Prostrate you shall speak from the earth, and from the base dust your words shall come. Your voice shall be like a ghost's (Hebrew, owb) (Vine's at 178), from the earth, and your words like chirping from the dust.” (NAB). According to Vine's, “Owb means 'spirit' (of the dead); necromancy, pit. This word usually represents the troubled spirit (or spirits) of the dead. This meaning appears unquestionably in Isaiah 29:4” (ibid.).

    http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Which Bible did you use, JD?

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Which Bible did you use, JD?

    Isaiah 14:9-10

    English Standard Version (ESV), but same with KJV and American Standard Version, and Young's Literal Translation, and the New American Bible.

    Isaiah 29:4

    Young's Literal Translation (YLT), New American Bible, KJV, New American Standard Bible.

    Even Job, a blameless and upright man, acknowledged the existence of the departed dead, the shades, in Sheol, where, in his reply to Boldad's third speech he said, “The shades (rephaim) beneath writhe in terror, the waters and their inhabitants. Naked before him is the nether world (Sheol), and Abaddon has no covering.” (Job 26:5,6, NAB). Not only do shades exist, but they exhibit emotions and tremble.

    Similarly, the inspired writers of the Book of Proverbs were fully aware that the departed dead, the shades, reside in Sheol, the nether world; they were not annihilated, they did not become extinct at death. Speaking of the ways of the adulteress, Proverbs 2:18 provides: “For her path sinks down to death, and her footsteps lead to the shades (rephaim) (NAB). Referring to those who live a life of folly, Proverbs 9:18 warns, “Little he knows that the shades are there, that in the depths of the nether world (sheol) are her guests” (NAB). And Proverbs 21:16 is an unambiguous warning, “The man who strays from the way of good sense will abide in the assembly of the shades (rephaim).

    One common misconception is that Sheol (Hebrew) is a place where only the wicked, unredeemed go, but that is not the case (PBD at 784). The grieving patriarch Jacob was inconsolable when told of his son Joseph's (fabricated) death, stating, “No, I will go down mourning to my son in the nether world (Sheol) (Genesis 37:35). Jacob, son of Isaac and father of twelve sons who in turn would father the twelve tribes of Israel, believed his eleventh son, Joseph, was dead and departed to Sheol, not extinct, and his grief was such that he wished to join him. And Job, while enduring excruciating torment, pleaded to God for shelter in the nether world of Sheol. He did not want to go there to be tormented further, but to escape the agony and torment he was suffering on earth, and then return: “Oh, that you would hide me in the nether world and keep me sheltered till your wrath is past,” (Job 14:13). His agony was so great he wondered why he wasn't delivered a stillborn baby; then he would find rest in Sheol:” For then I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then I would have been at rest. (Job 3:13, ESV). One cannot be extinct and non-existent and yet enjoy restful sleep and later return to the world when God's wrath is over. It's not possible.

    http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Rachel cannot be non-existent as her voice is heard in Ramah: “Thus says the Lord, “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more (Jeremiah 31:15, ESV). Ramah is “a village about five miles north of Jerusalem, where Rachel was buried (1 Samuel 10, 2). Rachel is said to mourn for her children since she was the ancestress of Ephraim, the chief of the northern tribes. Matthew 2:18 applies this verse to the slaughter of the innocent by Herod” (NAB notes, 31-15).

    And the great prophet Ezekiel was instructed by Almighty God to lament the wicked of Egypt destined for the pit of the nether world. A place in Sheol “shall be made them for all their hordes” (Ezekiel 32:20, NAB). These Egyptian hordes cannot be non-existent because “from the midst of the nether world the mighty warriors shall speak to Egypt: “Whom do you excel in beauty? Come down, you and your allies, lie with the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword” (vv. 20-21). Those that go down to the pit are not only conscious, but experience emotion, as they “bear their disgrace with those who go down to the pit” (Ezekiel 32:24, NAB).

    http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    EP and Jeffro:

    Metaphysical Science is not "pseudo-science". Any "real" science must consider mind and not just matter. The two are very much connected.

    The Hindus understood this concept, and that is why I refer to the time/space continuum as equivalent to the Akash. If you choose to dispute the knowledge these ancient peoples had, let's have some facts to back up your shit.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Metaphysical Science is not "pseudo-science". Any "real" science must consider mind and not just matter. The two are very much connected.

    Of course 'mind' is connected to 'matter'. 'Mind' is chemistry. Chemistry is matter. And pseudo-science is pseudo-science.

    The Hindus understood this concept, and that is why I refer to the time/space continuum as equivalent to the Akash. If you choose to dispute the knowledge these ancient peoples had, let's have some facts to back up your shit.

    The Hindus believe the concept you're promoting. There's no proof that the proposed beliefs are true. If you think it's up to me to prove a negative, you don't understand the burden of proof.

  • Jim_TX
    Jim_TX

    marked - me too

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Jeffro: The Hindus believe the concept you're promoting. There's no proof that the proposed beliefs are true. If you think it's up to me to prove a negative, you don't understand the burden of proof.

    Wrong. YOU are the one who is summarily dismissing metaphysical science and the "Akashic Record" as "pseudo-science". So the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it that its bogus.

    So since you know it all, why don't you explain to us how "real science" connects mind and matter besides "chemistry"? How are thoughts and the physical world connected?

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Metaphysical Science is not "pseudo-science".

    Yes, it is.

    Wrong. YOU are the one who is summarily dismissing metaphysical science and the "Akashic Record" as "pseudo-science". So the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it that its bogus.

    And this is why it's pseudo science. If it was real science, you would be going about it exactly opposite.

    So, if it's NOT psuedo-science, give me a hypothesis, a way to test it and falsify it, and predict the results.

  • caliber
    caliber

    These scriptures are interesting in talking about soul , spirit & physical body

    John 11:26 ......“everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.”
    Matthew 10:28 where Jesus said, “[Do] not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul (psuche); rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

    As there is a physical body, so there is also a spiritual body. ~~~ 1 Cor. 15: 44

    Eccl.12:7 [nwt]
    Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.

    *****************************************

    What is the physical cause for gravity or, to say, mathematics? How the neurons create language?
    . And nobody calls them "material." Nobody has doubts that they are non-material. And, yes, they hardly exist without the material presence of the sign. But nobody messes up the essence of mathematics and language, and it is not material

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