Fornication Vs Divorce

by chezza 16 Replies latest jw friends

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  hungry4life

  I agree with JT abstinence is only unrealistic when people don't have a life. Even as an adult (who loves sex) abstinence is easier for me because I am very active in other areas of my life between my kids, school, work, volunteering, working out, and of course this board. I fall into bed exhausted at night. For those times when it is tougher it also helps that I don't have any moral qualms about masturbation. I am not waiting till I remarry (I am not even concerned with that at this point in my life)and have never been a member of the 'after Armagedon Club' (yeah right) but with all the risks out their I don't want a cheap fling either.
  If only witness kids could play sports and further their education no to mention masturbate with out all the guilt, they might be able to see a brighter future and their would be less heartache.
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  Abaddon

  First of all, anyone who thinks abstinance is best CAN think that... me stating my opinion is NOT an attack on those with differing opinions. You've every right to them, as I have to mine.

  We are clever monkeys with opposable thumbs, Bach, space-flight and genocide. Wonderful and terrible. You might not agree with that opinion, but that's what I think.

  Thus, I find it if FAR more natural to have a sex life before forming a lasting pair-bond with someone. To conform to pseudo-religious dictates that have lingered on in society after their wholey religous nature has diminished doesn't make sense (to me).

  We are animals. We don't have sex because we have a unfilled social calender, because we have no life, we have sex because it is NATURAL and fun.

  And EVERY atempt to stop having people having fun, be it through sex, music, dancing or the consumption of pharmaceuticals or alcohol, has been historically doomed to failure, as people STILL have fun even if there are penalties attached to it.

  Also, there are many examples of cultures where there are markedly different moral regarding unweds having sex and marital fidelity. Those cultures don't appear to implode as a result. The only reason I think we in the west have the morals we do is because of the large correspondence between Judaeo-Christianity and Western culture, which is nothing more or less than a historical accident.

  If Jesus had been from Tonga, then the morals would be different.

  In the modern world we have vastly increased expected life-spans, wholey different expectations regarding how a relationship comes about, different expectations regarding roles and rights within that relationship; the list of differences between our culture and a simple agarian culture where marriages were early and largely arranged, and where women were chattel is HUGE.

  To have the same moral values, to me, makes no sense.

  To argue that it's the only way to stop STD's, and pregnancy in unmarried women is right. But, what if someone wants to get married in their mid or late twenties? Is it realistic to prescribe abstinance, as what was good for an illiterate 14 year-old Israelite girl MUST be okay for a modern woman?

  Abstinance based morals come from cultures where people were already in a marraige by the time hormonal urges really came into play - or even before. They make far less sense in a culture where it's normally impossible for someone under the age of 16 even to get married if they want to.

  Also, it's undeniable that people DO get married due to frustration if they are raised in cultures where abstinance is the expeted norm. The fact that if you 'keep 'em busy' they won;t think about sex is both arguable and irrelevant, as the harm of hasty marraiges still happens. I know! I've been there!

  Also, if there were no guns in private ownership, there would be no deaths. I don't see anyone expecting that to happen, and guns are FAR less neccesary than sex!!!

  Again, I stress, if your opinion is different, fine; I'm just saying what I think and would no sooner impose that on you than have you impose your opinion on me.
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  Scully

  Dear JT:

  As a maternal-newborn care nurse, I know exactly what you mean about the "Trophy Room". And, I agree, ideally abstinence is the ideal.

  Having said that, almost every single day I go to work, I'm faced with the fact that life is not always about dealing in the realm of ideals. I've worked with barely 13 year old mothers, little girls themselves, who are no more capable of looking after a baby than they are of looking after themselves.

  JW kids are not the only kids who "don't have a life". The majority of teen mothers I see are from disadvantaged and usually dysfunctional homes, where as much as the parent(s) - usually a single mother herself - wants better for her daughter, the sad reality is there's barely enough money for rent and food, so extracurricular activities are not just a luxury, but almost an impossible dream.

  I'm not saying that young people should be allowed to have sex whenever they want with whomever they want, without regard for the consequences, not at all. I will clarify and say that pre-marital sex for a responsible couple in a committed relationship should be their business, and not the business of 12 old farts in Brooklyn, NY. Kids need to have their parents around for them. Kids need to know that their parents are "there" for them. The ones I see who get themselves "in trouble" are usually unsupervised for long periods of time, or whose parents seldom know, and maybe aren't concerned, about their child's whereabouts or goings-on. And when the easements of nature hit the fan, the parents are outraged and shocked: "How could this have happened to MY kid??"

  My own kids are nowhere near ready for the responsibility of parenthood, and I've got my son (almost 16) so paranoid about how much it's going to cost HIM if he ends up fathering a child, he's not going there for a while. I've also recommended to my supervisor at work to have teens perform some community service hours (my son's school requires 40 hours) in our hospital's nursery at night. I swear, it might be the best deterrent for teen pregnancies ever.

  Love, Scully

  
  
• 

  Perry

  JT,

  As usual a very poignant post.

  I remember the big weekly skating parties in the late 70's, it was a lot of fun. Then, by the time I was 16 it was all over. It was deemed inappropriate. So, what did most of the teens do ....they left the truth, at least for a few years.

  Teens need to be socialized in age appropriate situations. They need to be structured by those who really care. The thing that is mostly missing in western society (and especially the borg) is genuine connections between people. Our strong individualistic and animalistic traits are often emphasied by those who stand to gain the most from policies formulated on such emphasis.

  When people have their social and emotional needs met, they have a remakable ability to display delayed gratification. When people are emotionally and socially starved, they will do anything to attempt to get that feeling of connection and bonding, even involvement in high risk behavior.

  Ask any mariage counselor why mates commit adultry and most will tell you it is definitely not about sex. It is about loss of an emotional bond. Those types of bonds require maintenence and effort.

  Want to have a better quality life? Delayed gratification will help propel you through college to get you there.

  Want to convince a girl that you really care? Delayed gratification is a tried ant true method.

  Want to make a million bucks? Delayed gratification will protect you from get rich quick schemes and point you toward more realistic endeavors and the hard work involved.

  Unlike animals, people have the ability to look into the future and delay instant gratification for the purpose of gaining a greater measure of happiness and effectiveness as a human being. A lack of strong social and emotional bonds cause many to simply attempt to get the warm feelings associated with acceptance and belonging through that which is readily available.

  While teen sex will never be eliminated because of biology, it certainly could curbed if the addage "if it feels good do it" were replaced with caring families and a social network of responsible peers.

  Addiction of any sort has been most accurately described for counseling purposes as a mal-adaptive attempt to have a relationship with an object, experience, or feeling.

  It is maladaptive because the recriprocal nature of a relationship with a human is impossible when looking toward an object, experience or feeling. Your pot, coke, job (workaholism), squeeze of the week (sex addition) cannot give back in an emotional way the effort you put into it.

  So, the action is repeated because the activity does produce a temporary mood change 100% of the time. Since people are never 100% in their ability to give back, a strong delayed gratification skill is needed to sustain a person when real human connections are unavailable.....even if its for just a few hours.

  Philosophies and policies based strictly on our biology deny our true potential as human beings a do a great disservice to our societies and future generations.
• 

  LDH

  Perry,

  Damn good essay! I want SO BADLY for my daughter to embrace the theology of SELF-DISCIPLINE and delayed gratification.

  Newborn babies are the only things in all the world that have no separation between wants and needs! Even by the age of 3-4 months you can teach your child the concept of delayed gratification!

  The whole thing of 'no pre-marital sex-' all well and good, but the reality is that in ancient times women/men were considered promised and married by the age of 12 or so! And living with all the responsibilities and privileges there of, be it right or wrong. So there weren't any 25 year old virgins, you'd better believe it. Unless you looked like Aunt Esther from Sanford and Son.

  Now, for the first time in history, children spend their childhood playing instead of working. Up until recently, babies as young as two and three would be spending all day in the fields, especially if they were slave babies!

  Thank God at least SOME children get to experience a childhood now. IMHO childhood should be free from adult issues such as:

  sex
  money
  religion
  politics

  When they are ready to discuss and embark on these four things, they will tell you---if you have cultivated a close relationship with them.

  I am more for responsible choices than I am for abstinence, per se.

  Lisa
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  SYN

  You've just got to be responsible about it. I agree w/Scully when she says that a bunch of old d0oDz in Brooklyn should have nothing to do with the sex lives of committed couples.

  Monagomy is very important in this regard.

  But be careful.

  Besides, all these people going on about sex, sex this, sex that...*wakey wakey*, some of the most earth-shattering orgasms are usually not the result of sex, but of other, different sexual acts. I won't go into them here. (I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about, the things guys and girls can do to each other *blush*)

  All I'm saying is, you can have a lot of fun without having sex.

  In my experiences, every time I've done that in a relationship, it didn't last terribly long. I looked at the girl in a different way afterwards!

  Better is to simply make her scream etc. without having sex. Then there's ZERO guilt, zero risk (well almost zero if you do it properly and are careful). That's just fine for me.

  The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age
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  chezza

  Thanks everyone for your very interesting and varied comments :-)