Exposing a JW to the definition of cults - good idea?

by NeverKnew 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  NeverKnew

  Okay, translation... suspend the mission until and only if he starts to question the society. (Btw, I know the rules of capitalization. Please know that my refusal to capitalize certain proper nouns is intentional and correlates with my annoyance level of the moment.)

  King Solomon & Aposta-Z: It was a very significant friendship then and a very significant friendship now. It kills me to hear that even with a congregation filled with people who are similarly wired, he feels that I'm his only true friend. He'll listen, but I truly don't want to hurt him and the potential familial losses, although only alluded to by him, are clear to me. There are actually only two biological who are baptized and attend, but they are the two family members that mean the most to him. I come here out of an unconditional love for him. For me, truly loving someone means an acceptance of where the person chooses to be. That doesn't mean I have to agree with their decision. This site has helped tremendously in understanding the current mindset as well as the potential pain if awakened. He's been through enough. By the same token, I do hate that he is so mal-informed. I had no idea that blissful ignorance was a requirement of the faith.

  Outlaw: For two months I was attempting to register using an aol account for registration and was relegated to, I believe the term is "lurking." It drove me crazy for I so wanted to communicate - even if for my own sanity. I suspect I was beginning to sound crazy when expressing my frustrations about something I wasn't even involved with to even my closest friends... LOL There were days your posts made me laugh. Thank you.

  Carla: "C" Word, OUCH! *grin* Okay, got it. I don't like the thought of intentionally hurting another so I'll avoid the word. I think I was kind of hoping to show him the elements of the concept while withholding the term. Then, after an acknowledgement that some or most of the elements were familiar, revealing the term. For now, I need to put the whole idea down.

  Xanthippe: These thought-stopping techniques employed by the organization suggest only one thing to me. Intentional deceipt. You can only imagine how frustrating this is for an outsider. I find myself not knowing what or what not to say. Again, he can be where he is. I'll accept that. BUT BE INFORMED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! He's actually been much more patient with my "are you kidding me?" outbursts than I have been with his ignorance. Hmm... wonder if that makes him more of a Christian than me. *sigh* Unfortunately, our conversations regarding faith brings moderate levels of tension that weren't there before. One Ex-JW suggested that these questioning sessions should not go beyond an hour. Believe me, I was firehosing.

  Sizemlk: I'm holding the CCMC and Releasing books in my hands now. I read them last Fall. The "Releasing the Bonds" book was leaning towards a coordinated effort of multiple people who would bake cookies and make calls. It's just me (not that ANY of you would POSSIBLY understand THAT dilemma! *grin*). I think I've read so much and have learned so much, I'm practically immobilized by my own conversations of "Wait.... should I say that? No... hold on, what'd the book say.... OMG! Did he just say that? Did he REALLY just say that? ...wait... do I respond this way? or that way.... stay calm... I can't believe he just said that though... this is ridiculous." Sizemlk, I can't even HEAR what he's saying because the conversations I'm having with myself are too loud! (and no, I am not schizophrenic)

  Fernando: Seriously?... another topic I have to get a PhD on? *HUGE SIGH* Okay, okay... on it. But I can't present it until I understand all of the implications.

  Reopened Mind: That conversation you had? I know how they felt. I'm so frustrated.

  Rebel8: Given your screenname, I suspect you were headed that way anyways. *giggling*

  Mission aborted. More questions to come, I'm sure. I know I'll need your patience in the future.

  Thank you all!
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  sizemik

  "Wait.... should I say that? No... hold on, what'd the book say.... OMG! Did he just say that? Did he REALLY just say that? ...wait... do I respond this way? or that way.... stay calm... I can't believe he just said that though... this is ridiculous." Sizemlk, I can't even HEAR what he's saying because the conversations I'm having with myself are too loud! (and no, I am not schizophrenic)

  LOL . . . fair enough. And well described . . . I've been there.

  When talking doctrine, or WTS, or religion in general . . . you are always confronting the "cult" personality. The cult personality, as manufactured by the WTS, is well refined over many years, and largely impenetrable. With every cult member there exists a "genuine" personality hidden and suppressed . . . and it is on this level where success is most likely. If you can connect on this level (without having to bake cookies) . . . it may only need one well thought out question to stimulate the cognitive dissonance. Once you find that point . . . just never let it go. Make him find an answer to the dilemma without moving the subject on (nicely of course). Once he realises it's important to you . . . and constitutes an obstacle, he is at least unlikely to preach at you with such gusto. If he does . . . just keep bringing him back to it, until you get a satisfying answer* (* there isn't one). Each time you do the CD is stimulated, the cult personality is subverted, and the authentic personality is confronted.

  It's a strategy. How you manage it differs with each individual, is by no means easy, and comes with no guarantees of course.
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  outsmartthesystem

  Ask questions. But don't come across as critical.....come across as truly inquisitive. Remember.....he is a JW which means HE is the teacher....not you. They are programmed to shut down to any idea that is not their own. Feign interest in some of his closely held doctrines. If he thinks he is teaching you....he will likely open up. The only thing you can do is ask questions to plant seeds that will hopefully get him to think
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  Finkelstein

  All cults are man made with an inherent intension of power, control and money as cultivating agenda.
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  Finkelstein

  You may want to pass on this information ......

  By Rick Ross, Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist

  Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

  1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

  2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

  3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

  4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

  5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

  6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

  7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

  8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

  9. The group/leader is always right.

  10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

  Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

  1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

  2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

  3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

  4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

  5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

  6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

  7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

  8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

  9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

  10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
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  cobaltcupcake

  From when I was a JW - I remember an observation someone once made about the "cult" accusation: The head of the Catholic church travels the world wearing a long dress and satin slippers, and they call us a cult?

  The "C" word just bounces off of them.

  http://scottleblog.wordpress.com

  The Odd Life of Jehovah's Witnesses
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  ziddina

  Crazy suggestion...

  Show them this website:

  http://www.cocs.com/jhoagland/amcult.html
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  Fernando

  Great description sizemik!
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  Cold Steel

  Another problem is that the word "cult" has no clearly defined meaning.

  I tend to think that to qualify one as a cult, one must isolate its members from their families and the outside world. They must control what is able to be read and what is forbidden. A cult keeps its members from associating with or having critical conversations with non-member family members. They control one's friends and the canon of scripture, be it Scientology's libraries or other articles of faith, forbidding all else.

  That said, the early Christian church was termed a "cult" by the Romans, even though not many of the above applied. Christians debated their scriptures, proselyted others, were accused of secrecy and Sunday worship. But they didn't go underground until they became persecuted. Church leaders weren't shy and the debates between Christian authorities and critics like Celcus and Peter's debates with Simon Magus are studied by scholars to this day. As far as we know, pressure was put on Christians to marry within their religion, there was no cutting off of families or demands not to read the words of the critics. Still, it was far different than the Judaism of its day and enough so to get it labeled a cult.

  The FLDS polygamists in southern Utah has completely and physically sealed off from the outside world. They're told what they can read and what they can't read and what they can't listen to. Women who try to escape are frequently caught by sworn Police Department personnel and returned to their families. Boys and young teenagers are often expulsed from the group because they form active competition for the old goats who run the religion, some with as many as 80 wives.

  The JWs live in a much less controlled environment, but controlled it is anyway. And they cut off family members unless those family members also are members of their church. Like the FLDS, criticism of leaders is not tolerated, and mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters often act as spies against their own families. "If mommie is a commie then you've got to turn her in!" Right??

  So once you decide on the definition, how do you pass on the bad news? You can't really get de-programmers for Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists, right?