Babette's Feast

by joelbear 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  ozziepost

  I've been asked whether I believe that JWs are Christians.

  It's a question Mrs ozzie and I have talked much about because we recall that for more than 50 years we believed as Dubs we WERE Christians.

  It's in more recent years that our viewpoint has somewhat changed. A Christian is quite clearly a follower of Christ. Are JWs followers of Christ? If they were, then no doubt they would reflect Jesus' words at Acts 1:8 "you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth." Is that what we find? Well, they may claim to be witnesses to the most distant part of the earth, but WHOSE witnesses? By the name they bear, they reveal that they are JEHOVAH'S witnesses. In scripture, who were to be Jehovah's Witnesses? The nation of Israel. But the nation of Israel are not Christian. Their name reveals that they do not ascribe that they are witnesses to Jesus, but to the Hebrew God, Jehovah.

  If the JWs are Christian, why do they choose to be known as Jehovah's Witnesses? Why not Jesus' Witnesses? Anyone who has been a JW would know that the position of Christ is very much that of a secondary created angel, not the 'only begotten'. By reading the WTS literature you will see quite clearly that the official WTS teaching is that Jesus is a created angelic son of God. Does this make them Christian? By no means!

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  tyydyy

  Ozzie,

  You are going to base you definition on semantics. Come on. They are just as christian as the Catholics and Babtists. They are a christian CULT but they do try to follow Christ. No one can completly follow Christ because no one knows exactly what he did.

  TimB
• 

  GentlyFeral

  Joelbear, thanks for starting this thread; Babette's Feast is one of my favorite movies!

  the power of actual giving demonstrated by Babette was proven more powerful that the simple recitation of prayers and hymns about heaven uttered by the devout.

  I agree that for most of the villagers their faith was pretty much as you describe.

  But consider Martina and and Philippa, the pastor's daughters who took Babette in. They gave up art and earthly love, but found deep satisfaction in staying close to their God and helping their neighbors. That's a gift in itself, one that not everybody has to the degree they did.

  It was their selfless benevolence that made Babette's feast of instructive sensual pleasure possible. Something that hadn't hit home with me until just now.

  And at the KH, all this would have been irrelevant.

  GentlyFeral
  livin' la vie spirituelle
• 

  ozziepost

  tyydyy,

  Like I said before, Mrs Ozzie and I have discussed this many times and with others. I can appreciate there's differing views. I think your view may be more persuasive if you didn't lump the Witnesses in with Catholics AND Baptists.

  Catholics and JWs share a works based theology, but not the Baptists. They believe in being saved by grace, which as you know is radically different.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  dungbeetle

  from the book 'children' (1941) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, page 222:

  "Even some countries, which are under the power and control of demonism, now declare by law that jehovah's Witnesses are illegal. Such worldly organizations show complete ignorance of the purpose and power of Almighty God. No earthly government or power has any authority to declare Jehovah's witnesses illegal; and in doing so such nation commits the rankest blasphemy and in due time shall receive a just recompense from the Lord's Executioner."

  Did you notice that just for them being ILLEGAL (that has to do with property, bank accounts) the nations are going to die die die? Not for stopping them from knowing Jehovah/Jesus; or living a Christian life, ot sharing Christ with others? For not legitimizing them!!

  So what part of this 'trying to follow christ' am I missing here.

  No; they are not Christians. It isn't even open for debate. As Farkel so loves to say; They are a book-selling company that uses the Bible as a prop.

  Jeuss probably loved his cousin John (the baptizer) like his own brother. They were only six months apart, and they both survived the horrid executions of all the boys-under-two..(Jesus' family fled but as for John it doesn't say how he escaped). John was obviously one of Jesus first and staunchest supports (even more so than Jesus' brothers and mother) down to his death. So when John was executed, what did Jesus do? Go into a long diatribe against the government? He wept!!! Now compare that with the DEMONIC statement of the Watchtower as quoted above, and you'll see why I feel the way I do.

  Good topic.

  Dungbeetle.

  In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"
• 

  tyydyy

  Saved by grace or not, Selling books or not, disfellowshipping or not, they are a religion that is different than others but they still adhere closely to the bible. They interpret it differently but so does every other religion that believes that the bible is the word of god.

  Are there other Christian religions that hurt their members? Yes. Every one of them do it to a certain extent. Pressure to donate funds. Pressure to "hate" wrongdoers. Pressure to "love" others solely on the basis that they are Christian. Covering over the wrongdoing of "elite" members of the church. Protecting molesters through polocies that make people report to the church first. If you think that the JWs are the only ones who do this, you really need to do some more research. Etc. Etc. Etc.

  Anyone who follows a groups teachings based on stories thousands of years old is taking their life and putting it in someone elses hands. IMHO.

  TimB
• 

  dedalus

  Good topic.

  It was a good topic, until it disintigrated into a semantic squabble about whether Witnesses are or aren't Christians. [8>]

  Dedalus
• 

  tyydyy

  Ded,

  And why can't you still talk about babettes feast? Are you trying to whine about something?

  TimB
• 

  siegswife

  Joel, I've never seen "Babette's Feast", but the name Babette reminds me of an excellent book I once read called "Malevil". I can't for the life of me remember who wrote it, but it's about the 'end of the world' and some of the survivors in a small village in France. I highly recommend it, although it does get a bit wordy at times.
• 

  dedalus

  Tyydyy,

  And why can't you still talk about babettes feast? Are you trying to whine about something?

  I'm not entirely discrediting the discussion that's off-topic. I'm just pointing out that it's off-topic. I'm not trying to whine about anything -- just comes naturally, I guess.

  Anyway, I more or less agree with you -- Witnesses are Christians. The only reason to insist that Witnesses aren't Christians is if you happen to be a Christian yourself, and are offended at being lumped in with a competing Christian religion. Understandably offended, even. But it all boils down to off-topic semantics, and at the end of the day, I don't even think it matters. The Organization is what it is, whether we call it a cult or a religion or a club or whatever. All of the labels are reductive because they leave something out.

  As for "Babette's Feast" -- has anyone read anything else by Isak Dinesen? Out of Africa is one of those books I've always wanted to read, but always put off reading, because based on the first 20 pages or so, I can tell that, once I'm finished, I'm going to regret that I can't read it for the first time ever again.

  Dedalus