Jesus ransom sacrifice ! ? For a dying man Adam ? and his offspring ?

by smiddy 18 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  smiddy

  I thought this deserved a thread of it`s own.

  These questions are inspired by previous posts , feel free to take credit for bringing it up guys.

  Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden of Eden before they had opportunity, or approval to eat from the tree of life , therefore as " perfect" ? human beings living in the garden of Eden and not partaking of the tree of life they would have eventually died.

  So when they were expelled from the garden of Eden they were in a dying state .(is that perfection ? )

  Jesus Christ died as a propitiatory sacrifice for Adam .

  Jesus Christ is said to be a perfect man without sin .

  The wages of sin is death , so the scripture states.

  So Jesus Christ a perfect man without sin (and apparently would never die naturally ) is a propitiatory sacrifice for a dying man, never partaking of the tree of life, who sinned and was punished with death.

  Am I missing something here ?

  I know I`m not the brightest tool in the shed , and I would appreciate your thoughts /comments/viewpoints to throw some light on these thoughts

  I look forward to your feedback

  smiddy
• 

  man oh man

  tree of life is symbolic of life. Also symbolic of Jesus. Blocking there path to the tree with the cherubs is also symbolic of them not being able to continue living forever. They lost out because they ate from the tree of knowledge as warned. Thus by removing them from the vacinity of the tree of life they began to die. The goal of all of their offspring would then be to eventually and symbolically eat from the tree of life in order to gain everlasting life.

  (Genesis 3:21, 22) . . .. 22 And Jehovah God went on to say: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,. . .

  (John 1:3, 4) . . .What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men.

  (John 14:6) 6 Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. . .

  (Revelation 2:7) . . .Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
• 

  mP

  Where does it say in the Bible that jesus died to counter the sin of Adam ? Scripture plz.
• 

  transhuman68

  Try these:

  1 Cor 15:22

  Ro 5:12-17

  Paul thought up the idea of the 'ransom sacrifice', and really, it had its flaws- but nobody seemed to worry about that in the cosmopolitan multicultural 1st century...
• 

  cog_survivor

  Hi Smiddy,

  I'm not by any means an expert but there are a few different views on the significance of Christ Sacrifice on the cross. I've got it on my booklist to read Auelen's book on Christus Victor

  You can read more on Wikipedia under the Christus Victor entry

  Basically the three major ones are:

  Ransom Theory - Satan holds everyone captive, Jesus pays the price for their release but being God, Satan has no hold on Him

  Satisfaction Theory - (a.k.a Penal Substitution) which is commonly held in the western world. God's sense of justice for the sins of mankind must be satisfied for Him to relate to humanity. Jesus paid the price for the sins of all

  Moral Influence view - Christ's death was the example of ultimate obedience.

  The more I read about theology and church history, the more I find a richness of variety in thought. Which is really great because it provides so many alternatives to the black and white thinking that was instilled in me before..
• 

  cofty

  The Adam-Jesus equivalence is a very minor theme in Paul's theology. It is completely musunderstood by JWs.

  JWs and the Ransom
• 

  mP

  trans-> MP:

  Try these:

  1 Cor 15:22

  Ro 5:12-17

  Paul thought up the idea of the 'ransom sacrifice', and really, it had its flaws- but nobody seemed to worry about that in the cosmopolitan multicultural 1st century...

  mP -> Trans

  First the scriptures, lets see what they say...

  http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/1-corinthians/15

  For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

  http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/romans/5

  n.

  12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.

  15 But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many. 16 Also, it is not with the free gift as it was with the way things worked through the one [man] that sinned. For the judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation, but the gift resulted from many trespasses in a declaration of righteousness. 17 For if by the trespass of the one [man] death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one [person], Jesus Christ.

  x

  Interesetingly, Jesus himself never said straight out he had to die because of Adam, instead we have some scriptures from Paul. 1 Cor 15:22 doesnt say Jesus death was necessary, it merely says Christ. Romans is a bit longer but again it does not equate or say Jesus died to balance or counter Adams sin.

  Given that Paul never writes anything about Jesus life on earth, Bethlehem, virgin birth, Mary, apostles, brothers, miracles or anything, how can we be sure of anything that he writes?

  Im sorry this whole idea of Jesus ransom sacrifice does NOT exist in the Bible. Jesus never mentions anything closely related to this concept, its all made up!
• 

  King Solomon

  Romans 5:13 says:

  13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14

  Interesting, as YHWH's demanding an accounting for spilled blood of man and animals doesn't occur until AFTER the Flood, in Genesis 9.

  So perhaps the Romans 5:13 is an attempt to explain why Cain wasn't punished by YWHW for manslaughter: it wasn't a sin at that point, since God hadn't yet criminalized that behavior.

  But with each question answered, another two are raised:why didn't God with his omniscience foresee Cain murdering Abel?

  Also, what were the sins committed by the wicked men who populated the Earth before the Flood, such that a death sentence was warranted? YHWH mentions how "evil in the hearts of men" had grown rampant and he regretted making man, but that not a sin....
• 

  MrFreeze

  It's a BS story any way. It gets kind of old hearing people try to justify something that has no basis in reality.

  You can examine it, break it down, look at it any which way you want. It is still just a pile of BS.
• 

  transhuman68

  Of course it is BS- but you still have to reply to the OP within the parameters that have been set... But what we need is a definition of Biblical 'perfection' and whether this equates to immortality. Obviously 'Jesus' was born, and grew older to the age of 30 or so: so when would a perfect man stop ageing? A good question... unless it is all BS of course...