Jeremiah 29:8-21 and the August 2012 Oral review

by Bobcat 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Bobcat

  Something caught my attention in connection with the TMS Oral Review.

  I was hoping to ellicit some comments, especially from any who have some working knowledge of ANE matters.

  Here is Question 9 of the August 2012 TMS Oral Review:

  When was Egypt desolated for 40 years, and what basis do we have for believing that such a desolation took place? (Ezek. 29:8-12) [Aug. 13, w07 8/1 p. 8 par. 5]

  The question cites the 2007 Aug 1st WT, p.8, par.5. It reads:

  [Ezekiel] 29:8-12 - When was Egypt desolated for 40 years? After the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., the remnant of Judah fled to Egypt despite the prophet Jeremiah's warning. (Jeremiah 24:1, 8-10; 42:7-22) That did not prove to be an escape for them because Nebuchadnezzar came up against Egypt and conquered it. The 40-year desolation of Egypt may have followed that conquest. While secular history provides no evidence of this desolation, we can be confident that it took place because Jehovah is the Fulfiller of prophecy.-Isaiah 55:11.

  Now, what got my notice in connection with the WT answer was something I read in Daniel Block's commentary on Ezekiel (NICOT Vol.II p.151) It reads:

  This prophecy envisions a military campaign into Egypt by Nebuchadrezzar. While external evidence for such a campaign is scant, a fragmentary cuneiform text refers to Nebuchadrezzar's thirty-seventh year (568 B.C.) when the king of Babylon marched against Egypt (Misir), that is, within three years of this prophecy. 28 The occasion for the invasion is unclear, but the apparent reference to Amasis ([Am]asu) as the reigning king may be correlated with the last years of Hophra's (Apries's) reign. According to Herodotus (Hist. 2.161-62), in 570 civil war broke out in Egypt, the end result of which was the death of Hophra and the succession of Amasis (570-526). Nebuchadrezzar may have timed his invasion to take advantage of these troubled political conditions in Egypt.

  Footnote 28 reads:

  See Parker-Dubberstein, Chronology, p. 28. For the text see ANET, p. 308b; D. J. Wiseman, Chronicles of the Chaldaean Kings (626-556 B.C.) in the British Museum (London: British Museum, 1956), p. 94. For a more recent discussion of the text see idem, Nebuchadrezzar, pp. 39-40.

  (Note that I tried to preserve the original formatting as it is.)

  The particular words of note from the WT are this:

  "While secular history provides no evidence of this desolation, we can be confident that it took place because Jehovah is the Fulfiller of prophecy." [end of quote]

  Block's commentary indicates there is a cuneiform text that describes an invasion by Nebuchadrezzar. Admittedly, the text doesn't give details of the destruction that ensued. But if I were trying to prove that the prophecy came true, evidence of an invasion by Nebuchadrezzar is alot better than simply saying, 'we can be sure God's Word took place.'

  Normally, the WT will grasp at anything that might hint at a fulfillment. And Block's commentary on Ezekiel is considered by some the gold standard in Ezekiel commentaries. So it's not likely that WT researchers missed this.

  From the WT viewpoint, one of the "unfortunate" aspects of Block's citation is the timing. For the text to be true, Nebuchadrezzar had to be alive when Amasis ruled (570-526 B.C.) Nebuchadrezzar's 37th year being in 568 would necessarily make the destruction of Jerusalem (his 19th year) 568/7. But if Jerusalem was destroyed in 607, then, Nebuchadrezzar was long dead before Amasis came to power in Egypt, making the cuneiform text false.

  So I guess my main question is: Is the WT hiding evidence that would otherwise build faith in the Bible's fulfillment - for the purpose of preserving their chronology? Or am I reading a bit too much into this?

  Thank you in advance for any comments.

  Take Care
• 

  steve2

  You raise a very good question. Perhaps another poster who has kept track of the threads on the topic of 607 can direct you to any that discuss your question.
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  Bobcat

  Incidentally, I mis-typed the year for Jerusalem's destruction. I put "568/7". That should be "586/7"
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  NOLAW

  Amazing bit of information! You have exposed their hypocrisy. Bravo Bobcat.

  The end of the spimGB is fast approaching!
• 

  WTWizard

  "While secular history provides no evidence of this desolation, we can be confident that it took place because Jehovah is the fulfiller of prophecy".

  How can we know that for sure? Jehovah is also the one that did his utmost to enslave the whole human race, and is still doing that. Jehovah is a liar, a cheat, a thief, a scumbag, and if he can't or won't even give me the opposite sex because he is too worried about "spoiling my character", then I will not trust the accuracy of anything else he prophesies or promises.

  Yes, secular history can be altered. Dishonest religious groups do alter history to prevent future generations from spiritual advancement, and time itself alters historical records. However, Jehovah always alters things for his advantage, and is behind all those religious groups that are trying to prevent us from spiritual advancement. Not to mention that this is from the washtowel, which is notoriously miserable in accurately reporting anything.
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  kepler

  Bobcat,

  A book I have here (Georges Roux's Ancient Iraq) puts it this way ( based on Wiseman's Chronicles of the Assyrian Kings):

  "A fragmentary tablet in the British Museum alludes to a campaign against pharaoh Amasis in 568 BC and mentions an Egyptian town, but this cannot be regarded as sufficient proof that the Babylonians set foot in the Nile valley."

  Egypt was conquered by Esarhaddon, but this did not last long. By the end of the same century Egyptian Necho was battling with Josiah.

  I would also note that Ezekiel seems to exaggerate the exploits of Nebuchadnezzar. Tyre was a 13 year siege with inconclusive results. It was Alexander of Macedon who "desolated" it. Yet for two chapters Ezekiel seems to write a eulogy for it. In chapter 29, in which Nebuchadnezzar directs his agression against Egypt by Ezekiel's account, my annotated NJB observes in a footnote:

  i. March-April 571. Chronologically the last of the divine utterances in Ezekiel, it completes or revises his earlier ones. As compensation for his partial failure against Tyre, v. 18 cf. of 26:7, Nebuchadnezzar is given permission to plunder Egypt which he invaded in 568, see Jer. 43:13. As agent of divine punishment he deserves his wages.

  This story gets complicated since Jeremiah 25:12 also says that the King of Babylon is condemned and is to suffer desolation forever immediately after Jerusalem's 70-year desolation is done. While I would say that Jeremiah's prophecy was simply confounded by history, Ezekiel appears more to be a mouthpiece for Babylonian policy and expectations. Marduk's views of these campaigns were probably quite similar.
• 

  Bobcat

  Kepler:

  but this cannot be regarded as sufficient proof that the Babylonians set foot in the Nile valley

  Thanks for the reply. The above is why I was being tentative. I wasn't sure if there might be some mitigating info.

  Searching for "Amasis" in the Insight Volumes resulted in these returns:

  *** it-1 p. 1140 Hophra ***
  After the Jews fled to Egypt in 607 B.C.E., Jehovah said by the mouth of Jeremiah: "Here I am giving Pharaoh Hophra, the king of Egypt, into the hand of his enemies and into the hand of those seeking for his soul." (Jer 44:1, 26, 30) This was to be a sign of imminent calamity to come over the Jews dwelling in Egypt. (Jer 44:29) According to Herodotus (II, 161-169), Hophra (Apries) undertook a disastrous expedition to Cyrene to help the Libyans against the Greeks in the sixth century B.C.E. Hophra's troops revolted against him and set up Ahmose II (Amasis) as rival king. Even then, Hophra was so arrogant that he "supposed that not even a god could depose him from his throne." However, he was taken prisoner and finally was killed by being strangled.

  *** it-1 p. 698 Egypt, Egyptian ***
  At Ezekiel 29:1-16 a desolation of Egypt is foretold, due to last 40 years. This may have come after Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt. While some commentaries refer to the reign of Amasis (Ahmose) II, the successor of Hophra, as exceedingly prosperous during more than 40 years, they do so primarily on the testimony of Herodotus, who visited Egypt over a hundred years later. But as the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1959, Vol. 8, p. 62) comments on Herodotus' history of this period (the "Saitic Period"): "His statements prove not entirely reliable when they can be checked by the scanty native evidence." The Bible Commentary by F. C. Cook, after noting that Herodotus even fails to mention Nebuchadnezzar's attack on Egypt, says: "It is notorious that Herodotus, while he faithfully recorded all that he heard and saw in Egypt, was indebted for his information on past history to the Egyptian priests, whose tales he adopted with blind credulity. . . . The whole story [by Herodotus] of Apries [Hophra] and Amasis is mixed with so much that is inconsistent and legendary that we may very well hesitate to adopt it as authentic history. It is by no means strange that the priests should endeavour to disguise the national dishonour of having been subjected to a foreign yoke." (Note B., p. 132) Hence, while secular history provides no clear evidence of the prophecy's fulfillment, we may be confident of the accuracy of the Bible record.

  One of the noteworthy things about these two quotes is the lack of any date other than 607. Also in the 2nd quote there seems to be an effort to discredit what Herodotus says about Egypt. Whether deserved or not, I don't know. I've come to distrust WT literature to the point where I never take their word alone for any conclusion. Interesting in the Insight quotes above is how in the 1st quote Herodotus is taken at his word, but in the 2nd, anything he says is written off as unreliable.

  Thanks for your reply. I'm hoping that more info might show up to shed more light on this.

  Take Care

  Edited to add:

  The paragraph just prior to the 2nd quote says:

  *** it-1 p. 698 Egypt, Egyptian ***
  One Babylonian text, dated to Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year (588 B.C.E.), has been found that mentions a campaign against Egypt. Whether it relates to the original conquest or merely to a subsequent military action cannot be said. At any rate, Nebuchadnezzar received Egypt's wealth as his pay for military service rendered in Jehovah's execution of judgment against Tyre, an opposer of God's people.-Eze 29:18-20; 30:10-12.

  The "(588 B.C.E.)" is WT inserted calculation based on their 607 dating. Its all so curious - the emphatic-ness that it was fulfilled, but the sure-ness that the scant evidence that might exist is unreliable.
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  Jeffro

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/96647/1/Hophra-and-the-Watchtower-Society
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  Bobcat

  Jeffro:

  Thanks for the link. I heading off to work right now ('to make bricks for the Egyptians' as some like to say), but I'll scrutinize it when I get back.

  Take Care
• 

  AnnOMaly

  Hi Bobcat,

  The WTS's argument comes down to, 'it was prophesied so it must have happened' even though there is nothing in the Bible that tells us how it was fufilled (and not all prophetic threats are carried out, e.g. Jonah and Nineveh) and the damaged cuneiform tablet is too fragmentary to tell us anything other than Nebuchadnezzar in his 37th year campaigned against Amasis. Unfortunately, and I heard this first hand, certain JWs assume that Nebuchadnezzar's campaign against Egypt means he also won and desolated the land despite there being no evidence to support it.

  To dovetail the WTS's timeline for Babylon with that of Egypt and other nations, they just shift everyone's chronology to match.

  I'll post scans of F.C. Cook's comments on this prophecy. I found him to give a very reasonable account, he acknowledges the historical difficulties of finding a literal and complete fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar's day and suggests a possible later one.