Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  I_love_Jeff

  Jehovah's Witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment. For me, I do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the Bible which strongly favors eternal damnation:

  The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:
  • "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
  • "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
  • "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
  • "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
  • "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
  • "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

  My question has to do with the parable in Luke 16:19-31 Sheol, Hades, Hell

  If this is just a parable, what percentage of it is true in regards to eternal punishment? I understand that the parable is simply exposing the falsehood of the Pharisees. If Jesus discusses Sheol, would that portion of the parable not necessarily be JUST a parable but literal?
• 

  Leolaia

  There is no question that postmortem punishment was part of early Jewish and Christian eschatology on the afterlife. I have given extensive references in earlier threads, from such sources as Enochic literature, Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus, and others. The main exception were the Sadducees who also rejected the notion of resurrection. It must be recognized that beliefs about resurrection, postmortem punishment, and eschatological judgment (Judgment Day) tended to be bundled together, and all three are prominent in the teaching of Jesus in the gospels.

  It is a category mistake to claim that the references to postmortem punishment in the Rich Man and Lazarus pericope must be figurative since the narrative is a parable. The Society pursues an allegorical interpretation because it is necessitated by their annihilationist eschatology; allegory is a handy hermeneutic to dispense with difficult scriptures. Allegory however is not justified by the text itself, which contains a narrative parable (quite different from similitude parables) that contrasts the moral choices made by different characters. It thus is strikingly similar to the Parable of the Good Samaritan, which is uniquely Lukan like the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. In both, the virtuous person is someone socially inferior (the Samaritan, the diseased beggar) and those who fail to follow the Torah are those who are socially respectable (the priest, the rich man). Both parables are aimed at illustrating the need to show concern for those less fortunate. The eschatological scheme in the Lazarus pericope is not the point of the parable; it is rather something that is presupposed. It is just as justifiable to allegorize it as it is to claim that there is no such place as a road from Jerusalem to Jericho (Luke 10:30), insisting that it is instead symbolic of some [fill in the blank] thing, with the robbers and the Levite and the Samaritan also being symbolic of other "classes" or types.
• 

  Dogpatch

  Early Christians AND Jesus definitely believed in the borrowed Greek/other sources concept of a fiery hell... it can hardly even be debated.

  Jehovah wants to see sinners on the grill forever and ever and delight in it with all the angels.

  Read:

  http://www.randallwatters.org/hellcomp.htm

  Randy
• 

  Nambo

  I find the Christadelphians view of this as a metaphor, the following for instance, whilst not the best article of theirs on the subject, will give you an idea of where they are coming from.

  The Rich Man and Lazarus

  Luke 16:19-31
  19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
  20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

  This well-known passage is misrepresented to establish the following unscriptural doctrines: the immortality of the soul, the conscious state of the dead, going to heaven or hell at death, and eternal torments. It is frequently treated as a literal narrative, but is really a parable, and if treated as a literal story is quite out of harmony with plain Bible truth. This will appear from what follows.

  Christ's discourse in this place is made up of a group of parables, namely, the lost sheep, the pieces of silver, the prodigal son, the unjust steward, the rich man and Lazarus. The opening words of the last two are identical: "There was a certain rich man" (Luke 16:1,19). If the one be literal, so is the other; but nobody wants to make out that the first "rich man" and his "steward" are literal historic characters. And there is still less reason for supposing such things of the second "rich man" and "Lazarus," though there was a real literal Lazarus, whose experiences are very closely connected with the lesson Christ here taught his disciples. But if any insist that it is not a parable, they must be reminded that "Without a parable spake he not unto them" (Matt. 13:34). Also that when the disciples asked Christ "Why speakest thou unto them in parables?" (Matt. 13:10), he answered, "That seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand" (Luke 8:10). This is sufficient answer to those who say Christ would not so speak as to blind the Pharisees. He expressly said that he would blind such presumptuous sinners: "For judgment am I come ... that they which see may be made blind" (John 9:39). They praised God and declared Jesus a sinner, though they saw his miracles. The popular misinterpretation of the parable makes void the truth concerning (1) The death-state, (2) The resurrection, (3) The judgment, (4) The promises made to Abraham, (5) The punishment of the wicked.

  THE DEATH-STATE.- The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that man is mortal because of sin, and that when he is dead he is as unconscious as if he had never been born. "The dead know not anything" (Eccl. 9:5). "In death there is no remembrance of thee" (Psa. 6:5). "In that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa. 146 : 4).

  THE RESURRECTION.- If the doctrine of the immortality of the soul were true there would be no need of the resurrection of the body, nor of Christ in particular. Yet we have Paul saying: "If the dead rise not ... then they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. ... What advantageth it me if the dead rise not?" (1 Cor. 15:16-18,32); See also Phil. 3:10,11; John 6: 39. There is no future life apart from resurrection. That was how Christ entered into life eternal (Psa. 16:10,11).

  THE JUDGMENT.- Men are not judged at death, but in tha resurrection. "The Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27). Then the wicked "shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:31,46). Then "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye (workers of iniquity) shall see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:28).

  THE PROMISES MADE TO ABRAHAM.- "To Abraham and his seed were the promises made" (Gal. 3:16). "The promise that he should be the heir of the world" (Rom. 4:13); "He sojourned in the land of promise as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob" (Heb. 11:9). "Thy land, O Immanuel" (Isa. 8:8). "The kingdoms of this world ... the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15). Study carefully "the gospel" that was preached to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), that is, the record of God's promises as found in the family history of Abraham in the book of Genesis. No one understanding this could possibly receive the popular interpretation of the parable in question.

  THE PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED.- Some "shall not rise" (Isa. 26:14); but shall "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" (Jer. 51:39). But "there shall be a resurrection ... of the unjust" (Acts 24:15); "the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:29). They shall "awake ... to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:3). After punishment "they shall die" (Rom. 8:13); "the second death" (Rev. 21:8). "Into smoke shall they consume away" (Psa. 37:20). They "shall not be" (verse 10). These and many other similar passages illustrate the scriptural doctrine of "everlasting punishment," which is very different from "eternal torment."

  A JEWISH FABLE.- Paul told Titus to rebuke the Cretans sharply that they might be sound in the faith, "not giving heed to Jewish fables" (Titus 1:14). It is one of these "Jewish fables" that Christ uses against the "covetous Pharisees" in the parable under consideration. The proof of this is to be seen in a careful comparison of Josephus' "Discourse concerning Hades" with the Bible doctrine concerning Hades, or the grave. Josephus was a Pharisee like those to whom Christ spake this parable; so his explanation of their belief is especially interesting. He says:

  "Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine ... There must be in it perpetual darkness." It is "a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behaviour and manners. In this region there is a certain place set apart as a lake of unquenchable fire. ... There is one descent into this region," passing the gate of which "the just are guided to the right hand, ... into a region of light ... This place we call The Bosom of Abraham. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand ... into the neighbourhood of hell itself ... where they see the place of the fathers, and of the just (notwithstanding the 'darkness,' we note), and even hereby are punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them," so that none "can pass over it."

  Every thoughtful reader will at once perceive that Christ in the parable refers to this belief - not, however, to approve it, but to condemn the Pharisees out of their own mouth. They boasted in Abraham (John 8:33-45) and Moses (John 9:29; 5:45-47). He makes Abraham and Moses condemn them (ibid). His reference to their "fable" no more commits him to a belief in it than does his reference to "Beelzebub" (Matt. 12:27), argue his belief in "The Lord of the Fly," which is the meaning of the name thus bestowed by the heathen upon an imaginary "Prince of the Demons." "Take heed (said Jesus), and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees ... of the doctrine of the Pharisees" (Matt. 16:6,12). There is much need still for "taking heed." Study carefully the Bible doctrine of Hades and you will discover that Hades is simply "the invisible," "the grave." Study also the kindred parable of Isa. 14, and how "Hell" (marg., "the grave," sheol, hades) ironically greeted the King of Babylon when he was "brought down to the sides of the pit" (verse 15). No one would attempt to literalize this passage. And it is equally impossible to literalize the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

  The parable of the unjust steward was spoken to "his disciples" to inculcate wisdom among the servants of God equal to the wisdom among the servants of Mammon. Among the latter were "the Pharisees who were covetous ... and derided him" (verse 14); so he turned "unto THEM" (verse 15) and convicted them of unjust stewardship in the matters particularized, and spoke "unto them" the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The former represented "them" and their class, and the latter "his disciples" and that class. Among these last was Lazarus of Bethany, whom he actually raised "from the dead" (not from the Pharisaic "hades"), so that Lazarus afterwards "sat at the table with him" (John 12:2). "But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus to death" (verse 10). Presently Christ himself was put to death and raised again from the dead; yet the Pharisees went on boasting in Moses and rejecting Jesus, in illustration of this much misunderstood parable. And so do many in Israel unto this day.

  Reproduced from: The Christadelphian Shield: Papers Explanatory of Wrested Scriptures
• 

  transhuman68

  Ecclesiastes 3:18-22

  Psalms 6:5

  Lots of words in the Bible...
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  jonathan dough

  http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

  The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the story of the rich man (Dives) and Lazarus is a parable where the rich man represents the Pharisees, and Lazarus the common Jewish people who repented and became followers of Jesus. Their deaths were merely symbolic and represent a change in circumstances, a role reversal for the favored and despised (Reasoning at 175).

  19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers[b]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (ESV)

  The Jehovah's Witnesses are correct in recognizing the symbolic role reversal between the rich man and Lazarus. The reversed conditions the two men find themselves in are a stark forewarning, and mirror the beatitudes at Luke 6:20, 21; 24, 25. “Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied. Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry.” But the story addresses many other issues other than a role reversal, and is packed with useful insight, the most obvious being that the departed, conscious, dead like the rich man and Lazarus, and Abraham, reside in an intermediate state.

  Actually, mainstream theology agrees, somewhat, that verses 30 and 31 pertain to the Christian message. The Roman Catholic Church and other denominations understand these verses to be “[a] foreshadowing … of the rejection of the call to repentance even after Jesus' resurrection” (NAB notes 16, 30-31). But that's not the sole lesson to be learned. One of the more salient points made is a stark warning to take care of the needy and desperate if it is within one's means, or you might suffer the same fate as the compassion-less rich man.

  Even though most consider the story to be a parable, some interpret the rendering literally, and the Jehovah's Witnesses attack such literalists, assuming that all Christians regard it as historical fact, which they don't all believe to be so. Even if it were meant to be taken literally, which is possible, the Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to strike it down in its entirety simply because it contains metaphor within the story. In other words, they argue the story can't be real because those enjoying divine favor could not literally fit on Abraham's bosom, and a mere drop of water could never quench the rich man's thirst or survive the parched literal heat of the literal burning fire (Reasoning at 174-175). But these illustrations are metaphor or figures of speech peculiar to the times. Lying in Abraham's bosom is a term of endearment, representing a special relationship (“The Son, who is in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18). The drop of water on the tip of Lazarus' finger symbolizes the abject desperation and despair the tormented rich man is enduring – his anguish is such that he'll “take anything.” And the burning flames represent the punishment awaiting those doomed to perdition. (While some Christian denominations continue to believe the fires of hell are literal flames of fire, conservatives generally do not.) The point is, even a literal translation of the story containing figures of speech and metaphor to enhance the meaning would pass muster.

  We know dead Lazarus and the rich man are in the intermediate state because the rich man refers to his five living brothers still on earth, so it must take place prior to the resurrection. As a parable the story is no less truthful as were all of Christ's parables, and this one is meant to convey important scriptural truth. Jesus never lied or mislead his people, which is what he would have done with this story if all men's souls (spirits) are extinguished at death.

  As stated, the story of postmortem Lazarus and the rich man illustrates that departed souls are conscious and can experience comfort, torment and anguish, and they are capable of communication. It tells us Abraham is alive, just as Jesus reiterated what God said in the present tense, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” He is not the God of the dead,” Jesus said, “but of the living” (Matthew 22:32, ESV) (“to [God] all are alive”) (Luke 20:38, NAB). Here God is speaking of two things, a) the resurrection, and b) the living soul (spirit) that animates the body, the soul being the true person.

  While the general discussion of Matthew 22:32 pertained to the future resurrection, it also refers to those in the intermediate state; it is only the dead physical body that is resurrected, to be rejoined and animated by the soul. But it is the soul (spirit) which God regards as being presently “alive” because a “body without a spirit is dead.” (James 2:26). Because God and Jesus spoke in the present tense of the departed as living, these specific words could not have referred to a future resurrection but dealt, specifically and by necessity, with souls in the intermediate state which play a vital role in the future resurrection; the eventual soul (spirit) and body reunion.

  But the primary reason the Jehovah's Witnesses view the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as such a threat to their theology and dismiss it so casually is because it clearly states that man will have had sufficient warning in the present age (PBD at 480), and because the story teaches that man's destiny is settled at death. There is no “second chance” (ibid.). “Human beings die once, then after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). This Bible teaching is in direct contradiction to the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation plan (one of several) which is premised on a “second chance” at salvation for virtually all of mankind, most of whom will supposedly be resurrected on earth where they will reside during the 1,000-year-reign.

  There is no second chance, which is one of the messages of the rich man and Lazarus, and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't want to hear that. “Scripture represents the state of the lost after death as a fixed state,” (Luke 16:19-31) (PBD at 381). “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive recompense according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil” (2 Corinthians 5:10). “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). “The Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:9). Obviously, there is no second chance or probationary period. The final judgment will be determined by what man does in this life, in this body, not some future state of existence (see also Matthew 7:22,23; 25:41-46).

  In this regard the story of the rich man and Lazarus is toxic to the Watchtower Society and completely undermines their religion, which explains their motive for dismissing it, including the all-too-obvious underlying message that, like Lazarus and the rich man, the departed conscious dead migrate to an intermediate state; they are not annihilated, they do not become extinguished. The supernatural order for departed humans does in fact exist today.

  http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html
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  designs

  'The supernatural order for departed humans does in fact exist today' uh ok
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  jonathan dough

  'The supernatural order for departed humans does in fact exist today' uh ok

  As a matter of fact it does. Humans do have souls, and when people die and cease to exist, those immaterial entities, the self, the soul (spirit) depart to the intermediate state awaiting the resurrection. This is mainstream, traditional Christian theology. The Old Testament also has plenty of proof to substantiate this, as does the New Testament. You're a Jew, or share many of their beliefs. I'm surprised you don't agree. You believe in the rephaim, don't you? How about the owb?

  Words other than nephesh in the Old Testament are used when referring to departed souls, such as rephaim, often translated in the English as 'shades' or 'healers.' Rephaim are ghosts according to Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testament Words (Vine's) and very much in existence according to the Old Testament as seen by Isaiah 14:9-10 (ESV), which completely disproves the Jehovah's Witnesses' theory that only extinction follows man at death. In speaking of the king of Babylon, Isaiah wrote:

  9 Sheol beneath is stirred up
  to meet you when you come;
  it rouses the shades to greet you,
  all who were leaders of the earth;
  it raises from their thrones
  all who were kings of the nations.
  10 All of them will answer
  and say to you:
  ‘ You too have become as weak as we!
  You have become like us!’

  This passage in and of itself proves the Jehovah's Witnesses wrong. Here, the shades obviously exist and were not extinguished into nothingness. They even speak, and therefore think. The Watchtower leadership is fully aware of this insurmountable obstacle to their theology. To circumvent the problem they translate rephaim as “those impotent in death,” but this does not help them in the slightest because it only describes one condition or attribute of the departed, that they are in a weakened condition, as seen by the answer the shades gave - that the king of Babylon would become weak like they had become. Nothing in these verses remotely suggests that these rephaim, or shades, don't exist; it's impossible, even if the shades are impotent with respect to their powers. Impotent does not mean annihilated, it does not mean nonexistent. Furthermore, Almighty God, YHWH, does not lie; his word is truth (Titus 1:2; John 17:17). If shades do not exist in the nether world of Sheol, he would never convey to his people that they did, and that they spoke and are conscious. God is telling us in no uncertain terms that an immaterial, conscious entity survives the death of the body.

  That the departed dead spirits in Sheol are conscious and communicate and think is reiterated at Isaiah 29:4 (KJV) where God warned the inhabitants of Jerusalem of their impending destruction, writing through the prophet, “Prostrate you shall speak from the earth, and from the base dust your words shall come. Your voice shall be like a ghost's (Hebrew, owb) (Vine's at 178), from the earth, and your words like chirping from the dust.” (NAB). According to Vine's, “Owb means 'spirit' (of the dead); necromancy, pit. This word usually represents the troubled spirit (or spirits) of the dead. This meaning appears unquestionably in Isaiah 29:4” (ibid.).

  http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html
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  I_love_Jeff

  "Allegory however is not justified by the text itself, which contains a narrative parable (quite different from similitude parables) that contrasts the moral choices made by different characters."

  @ Leo- forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by this? Thank you!
• 

  designs

  jd- To say it is a fact are you communicating with these souls in some fashion or can you offer some proof you have documented.