What Proof Is There That Rutherford Was Responsible For The Pyramid Monument Near CTR's Grave?

by JWB 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  reslight2

  Finkelstein stated:

  Pyramidlogy and the WTS is an interesting subject for it makes up much what the leaders of the WTS. were attempting to do with their religious publishing house.

  The study of the Great Pyramid actually only represented a very, very small fraction of the tens of thousands of pages of Russell's works. Russell never considered belief that the Great Pyramid as God's witness in Egypt to be essential fo for anyone to believe in order to be a Christian. Russell was more concerned about defending the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and helping others in developing Christ-likeness than in the Great Pyramid, or time prophecy.
  
  As to pyramidology, Russell never used that word. As it was originally used, however, the word "pyramidology" simply denoted a study of the Great Pyramid as it related to the Bible. That word today is often used of many forms of pyrmaid magic, pyramid power and spiritism that Russell did not believe in. To apply the word in the latter sense to what Russell taught would be like saying that when Shirley Temple sang, "I've no one to be gay with", that she was saying she had no homosexual partner.
  See:
  The Strange Teaching of Pyramidology
  http://ctrussell.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/pyramidology/
  
  
  Finkelstein stated:

  Personally I think Rutherford realized Pyramidology couldn't hold up under practical scrutiny, since it was known that the Pyramids

  More than likely, Rutherford realized that the Great Pyramid would not support his new applications of Bible time prophecies. Rutherford was seeking some Bible prophecies by which he could gain support for his new "organization" dogma, and he had begun to reapply many of the time prophecies in such a way as to make it appear that they have something to do with his new organization. He realized that the Great Pyramid would not support such applications, so he unwittingly attributed Satan to having knowledge of the Bible before the Bible had been written by the way he claimed that the Great Pyramid had been constructed by Satan.
  
  Rutherford, in his claim that the Great Pyramid was of the devil, had to explain away the overwhelming evidence that shows that the Great Pyramid is God's Witness in Egypt. Actually, Rutherford, in effect, did not deny the evidence; he attributed the evidence to being the work of Satan. Rutherford had come to the conclusion that anything that did not fit his "organization" concept must be of the devil. In actual application, his statements would mean that Russell was of the devil and a worker of Satan, and that his alleged organization in 1918 was serving the devil; and yet at the same time he reapplied the time prophecies to make it appear that Jesus had approved his alleged organization in 1918.
  
  Actually, Rutherford had not yet created his organization in 1918, although he had already laid many seeds for the creation of that organization. A few Bible Students realized that Rutherford was doing as early as 1917, but for most, it did not become apparent until the 1920s. By 1928, more than 75% of the Bible Students had rejected Rutherford's new organization, and his new "gospel" associated with that organization.
  
  
  Finkelstein stated:

  had much to do with ancient Egyptian religious practices but it did create something he could use and that was 1914.

  The Great Pyramid did not create the date 1914, although it does support that date. The date is based on study of time prophecies; it was never based on any measurements of the Great Pyramid.

  One more point, neither Barbour nor Russell was interested in study of the "pyramids" (plural), except that the difference might be shown between the pyramids and the Great Pyramid. Neither Barbour nor Russell sought, believed in, or practiced, Eygyptian ritual practices and ceremonies as may have been associated with either the Great Pyramid or the "pyramids' in general. Only the largest of pyramids is believed to be God's witness in Egypt.
  
  As far as Egypt is concerned, the scripture states: " Yahweh has mixed a spirit of perverseness in the midst of her; and they have caused Egypt to go astray in every work of it, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit." (Isaiah 19:14, World English) Of course, Egypt would also pervert God's works and creation for idolatrous purposes.

  Finkelstein stated:

  WW1 started that year and it conveniently correlated to Christ supposedly taking his position in heaven and the time of great tribulation.

  Yes, one of the things Russell was expecting around 1914 was "warfare" as a sign that the time of trouble had begun.
  
  Finkelstein stated:

  So he went to work on calculating another way to create the significance of 1914.

  I am not sure what this is meant to say, but it appears to be stated upon the assumption that Barbour and Russell had only used the Great Pyramid to attain the date 1914, and that, since Rutherford had rejected the Great Pyramid as God's witness in Egypt, that Rutherford went to work on calculating another way to obtain the date. However, the date 1914 was not created by the measuremens in the Great Pyramid; the Grea Pyramid only confirms the conclusions reached by the study of time prophecies.
  
  Rutherford did create another significance to the date, when he claimed that Christ had returned in 1914 (rather than 1874).
  
  Rutherford, in the latter 1920s, seem to fluctuate regarding whether Christ had returned in 1874 or 1914; for a while, he seemed to have two sets of applications for the time prophecies, one that applied to his new organization, and the other that presented a view similar to what Barbour and Russell had presented. Finally, the JW leadership rejected all the applications of time prophecies to 1914 that Barbour and Russell presented except for that of Daniel 4, which they still retain to this day, as far as I know. The application of Daniel 4 to the times of the Gentiles, however, was not a new method of calculation of 1914, since both Barbour and Russell had used that same calculation before Rutherford began the creation of the organization that he named "Jehovah's Witnesses".
  
  See:
  http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/volumes/B04.asp

  See also my site related to the Great Pyramid and the Bible:

  http://gp.reslight.net
• 

  reslight2

  Finkelstein stated:

  Really ?

  So the fact that Russell used two notable symbolisms of which the Free Masons used themselves such as the Cross and Crown

  Really, the fact is that one has use the spirit of human imagination to draw an imaginary line between the cross and crown artwork that Russell used and something similar (although not exactly the same) as used by the Knights Templar (who claim to be Christian, who claim that they obtain their cross and crown symbolism from traditional Christian sources), then one has to create a line of assumption from the Knight's Templar cross and crown symbology back to the artwork that Russell employed, and further assumptively claim that anyone who uses something similar that which the Knight Templar use must mean that such usage is of the Freemasons (who do not, as a whole, use that symbolism). To claim the latter assumption is to claim that all of the major denominations of Christendom are Masonic, since they have all employed similar cross and crown symbolisms.

  See my studies related to the Cross and Crown misrepresentations at:
  http://ctr.reslight.net/?cat=168

  What one has to accept regarding any artwork Russell used as being allegedly "Masonic" has to imagined and assumed in contradiction to the overwhelming testimony of what Russell himself wrote.
• 

  St George of England

  Within the structure, incased in a block of granite, will be a sealed metal box, in which is a complete set of Karatol(?) Scripture Studies, the Memorial Tower, and one of every tract, photographs of Pastor Russell, a copy of the Society's charter, and many other things to interest the people who at some future date may open the pyramid and find them.

  I was under the impression that the pyramid was opened in the 1980's and undisclosed items removed. Is there any evidence of this?

  George
• 

  reslight2

  Finkelstein stated:

  in addition to the fact that Russell gave talks in many Free Masons halls, bares no similar association whatsoever

  Russell and the Bible Students did and still do rent meeting rooms from many different organizations. Russell also gave talks in Methodist churhes; does this mean that he was a member of the Methodist denomination? He also gave talks in Elks Lodges; does this mean that he was a member of the Elks Lodge? Russell also spoke in buildings owned by the United States Armory; does this mean that Russell was a member of any branch that was being served by the armory? I could probably find many more different examples wherein the Bible Students have rented meeting rooms from many different organizations; such rentals does not mean that the Bible Students were in support of, or that they are members of, whatever organizations owned the buildings.
  
  When I was baptized at a General Convention of the Bible Students in Bloomington, IN, the convention had rented a local Baptist Church for such; this does not at all mean that the Convention committee were all members of the Baptist denomination and in support of the Baptist denomination. It certainly does not mean that I am a member of the Baptist denomination because I was baptized in a Baptist Church building. That same Baptist church building was used by Bible Students for the showing of "The Bible Answers" films; again, the fact that the church was used for these showings does not mean that the Bible Students were in support of the Baptist denomination.

  No, the fact that at times Brother Russell spoke in buildings owned by the Masons offers nothing at all to me as meaning that Russell was pro-Masonic.
• 

  NeverKnew

  I will be at that cemetery this week sometime.

  I can try to make it during business hours.

  I'll ask.
• 

  reslight2

  Finkelstein stated:

  Really ?

  and noting that the remaining IBSA used Free Mason halls after breaking away from Rutherford and his newly created organization the JWS ?

  Most of the Bible Students would probably never have considered themselves to have been members of Rutherford's newly created organization to begin with; I remember, back in 1960 or early 1970s, one of the older Bible Students who lived through that time telling me that they did not break away from the organization; I wish I could remember the exact words he used, but having been associated with the JWs, and being familiar with their version of the history of those times, I was somewhat startled by his words.
• 

  Finkelstein

  What one has to accept regarding any artwork Russell used as being allegedly "Masonic" has to imagined and assumed in contradiction to the overwhelming testimony of what Russell himself wrote.

  Your a bible student religious nut bar reslight2 everyone here knows that and thats why your so staunchly want to protect

  your avowed brethren C T Russell so much, even though he's been dead for almost a century now.

  I never insinuated that Russell was indulged into weird pagan Egyptian practiced, thats some other ignorant nutbar.

  Russell himself quoted that he himself was indeed a free and accepted Mason once giving a talk at FM Hall, he didn't mean it literally but that he was a

  Free Mason by virtue of his individualistic Christian Evangelical beliefs as he presented them to the public.

  As it's known Pyramidology wasn't Russell's own theological concept, although he embraced this ideology and put it into print himself

  in his own published works.

  Russell was a true plagiarist charlatan, where he gathered other people's ideas and used (exploited) them himself for commercial purposes.

  Kind of like the web site that you keep on spamming toward on this forum, Reslight2
• 

  reslight2

  JWB stated:

  According to the 1919 Convention Report (CR):
  
  "In the exact center of the Bethel lot will be erected diagonally the Pyramid Shape Monument as designed by Brother Bohnet, and accepted by Brother Russell as the most fitting emblem for an enduring monument on the Society's burial space."
  
  Was the CR, and by extension Bohnet, lying that Russell had okayed the monument?
  
  As we know, oral testimony is just as acceptable in law when establishing facts as written testimony. So, either the CR is stating a falsehood or it is not. I understand that modern Bible Students who have a profound respect for CTR will not wish to entertain the idea that he may have approved anything of an "extravagent" nature, yet he may have justified the expense of such a monument considering it "a most fitting emblem". I don't get the impression that CTR would reject using WTS money on something he considered to be promoting praise to the Lord, including a small monument depicting God's Great Stone Witness. I suppose it is just a matter of personal perspective.

  I cannot be 100% certain either way; I do question the statements given because much that was being published by Rutherford concerning Russell, and the historical events during the time of Russell, has been shown to not match the actual printed documentation from the time era itself. I also know the tendency of that time was to distort historical events to make them appear to be have been harmony with the "organization" concept, as we all to distort much that Russell stated. Although Rutherford had already begun to distort past events to justify the authority he claimed before the release of the book, "The Finished Mystery", the release of that book is most notable in the claims made for "The Seventh Volume", which was claimed to have been the posthumous work of Russell, when, in fact, most of that book was not from Russell.
  
  Later examples include the false testimony given in the Walsh trial as well as several other trials that false testimony was given pertaining the time that Russell lived. For instance, Covington gave false testimony, when he, in effect,? states that in the days of Russell, all Jehovah's Witnesses had to accept that Christ had returned in 1874. There was no JW organization in those days, and there was no central authority in those days, although some of the Bible Students seemed to regard Russell to be something like a central authority. Russell claimed no special authority of the churches, and certainly never said, or demanded, that all Bible Students had to accept that Christ had returned in 1874. The official position stated in the Watch Tower publications at that time made no such demand that all in the congregations of the Bible Students had to believe that Christ had returned in 1874.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOjmHne4iyk

  I could also provide many quotes from Watchtower publications that misrepresent the factual record of the time of Russell. Maybe some day, God willing, I will make a collection of such quotes and show how they are distorting the events of that time. About 15 years ago, I wrote a tract that shows at least one of such distortions, as pertaining to the ransom and the year 1918:

  http://jws.reslight.net/?p=19
  
  Hearsay testimony, however, is usually not acceptable in a court of law. Sometimes some who have been given, or placed themselves, in a position of authority may be allowed to get away with such testimony based on "the authority" concept. Even though the one in authority should give false testimony, such testimony may be accepted by many as credible simply based on the "authority" concept.
  
  Although, as I have stated, I question whether Russell actually did approve the building of that monument, that concern is of minor importance to me in comparison with the imaginative false claims being made concerning that monument and Russell's study of the Great Pyramid by Fritz Springmeier, David Icke, and many others.
• 

  Finkelstein

  So then Reslight2 your in agreement then that Russell, your fellow brethen, taking on and accepting Pyramidology

  was quite the stupid action on his part, since he self identified himself as a inspired devoted bible scholar/interpeter, should

  never embraced this quack ideology and sold it openly to the public.

  The other interesting thing is the IBSA under J Rutherford who was still embracing Pyramidology when he proclaimed

  that god had chosen the IBSA as his solemnly chosen earthly organization. (1919)

  Retrospectively that wasn't really a stupid thing to do since this help validating the organization toward the public

  an otherwise good cunning marketing strategy for a religious publishing house to make.
• 

  reslight2

  Finkelstein stated:

  So then Reslight2 your in agreement then that Russell, your fellow brethen, taking on and accepting Pyramidology

  was quite the stupid action on his part, since he self identified himself as a inspired devoted bible scholar/interpeter, should

  never embraced this quack ideology and sold it openly to the public.

  Absolutely NOT! Whatever would give you such an idea?
  
  Russell was essentially correct in accepting the Great Pyramid as the God's witness in Egypt, although he made some errors regarding its measurements.

  I am not sure what is meant by the idea that Russell "self identified himself as a inspired devoted bible scholar/interpreter"; what is this referring to?

  Since I have seen nothing at all that I would call "quack ideology" in the teaching that Great Pyramid is God's Stone Witness, such a statement is irrelevant to me. I do believe that many have and are misusing the Great Pyramid and its measurements.

  Finkelstein stated:

  The other interesting thing is the IBSA under J Rutherford who was still embracing Pyramidology when he proclaimed

  that god had chosen the IBSA as his solemnly chosen earthly organization. (1919)

  Retrospectively that wasn't really a stupid thing to do since this help validating the organization toward the public

  an otherwise good cunning marketing strategy for a religious publishing house to make.

  Yes, if by "pyramidology" one means that in 1919, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was still teaching that the Great Pyramid is God's Witness in Egypt. That was my point; Rutherford, in 1928, claimed that this teaching is of the devil, while at the same time claimed that in 1918 Jesus came to inspect the "organization" (which really did not exist in 1918) and approved the "organization" that, according to what he was saying in 1928, was teaching a docrine of the devil. I do not at all in any way believe that the teaching of God's Witness is of the devil; I disagree entirely with such a thought. I repeat: I do believe that the evidence is overwhelming that the Great Pyramid is God's Witness in Egypt. I cannot deny that evidence, or claim, as did Rutherford, that Satan provided that evidence.
  
  I am in general agreement with what Morton Edgar presented in 1929, regarding Rutherford's claims of 1928:

  In our class in Glasgow, Scotland, a group of the brethren devoted five weeks to a close study of an Anti-Pyramid article which appeared in the 1928 ‘Watch Tower" (15th November); and we came to the conclusion that not one argument in that article, directed against the inspired testimony of the Pyramid, can stand either the test of Scriptures, or reliable history. We are glad to note that many of the brethren everywhere have come to the same conclusion and many of them have pointed to the significance of that statement made by Brother Russell in his 3rd volume of ‘Studies," page 319, first paragraph, which reads: ‘This ancient structure being thus repeatedly referred to in the Scriptures, we cannot doubt that, if questioned, this ‘Witness’ of the Lord in the land of Egypt will bear such testimony as will honor Jehovah, and fully correspond with his written Word. We thus introduce this ‘Witness’ because the inspiration of its testimony will doubtless be as much disputed as that of the Scriptures, by the prince of darkness, the god of this world, and those whom he blinds to the truth."

  Satan could not have been the designer of the Great Pyramid, for this monument contains many features corroborative of the Biblical plan of salvation, which could not have been known to the great adversary when the Pyramid was built over forty centuries ago. Very little investigation can easily prove this. For instance, when our Lord was asked by his disciples when the Kingdom of Israel would be restored, he replied: ‘It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Ac 1:7); and on a previous occasion he had declared: ‘Of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mr 13:32).

  Now, when we investigate the time-measurements of the Great Pyramid, we find that not only is the ‘Day of the Lord" indicated by them, but all the time-features or prophetic ‘days" mentioned by Daniel the Prophet are accurately marked. Daniel saw his visions, and wrote regarding these ‘Days," about five and a half centuries before our Lord’s first advent, and about sixteen hundred years after the Great Pyramid was built; and he was commanded to ‘shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of end." (Da 12:4). None would understand these matters until the ‘Time of the End"-that is, until the end of the Gospel Age. And yet we find that the Great Pyramid contains these time-features of Daniel, corroborating them by accurate measurements. If God did not reveal these features to Daniel until sixteen hundred years after the Pyramid was built, and if none were to know how to interpret them until many centuries afterwards, and even then only by those who are declared to be ‘wise" (that is wise in the knowledge of the Lord), how could it be possible for Satan, ‘that wicked one," to have known of them at the time the Pyramid was built? It is quite manifestly unscriptural to make any such claim, seeing the heavenly Father had retained in his own power the times and seasons.

  There are many other things, now seen to be incorporated in the symbolisms and dimensions of the Great Pyramid, which Satan could not possibly have known about when the building was erected, and about which he probably does not even yet know. For it is only those who have the spirit of the Lord who are taught of God-none others have the privilege of understanding the deep things of God. Just at this point I would like to repeat what Brother Russell says about the Pyramid’s testimony: ‘The Great Pyramid proves to be a storehouse of important truth-scientific, historic and prophetic-and its testimony is found to be in perfect accord with the Bible, expressing the prominent features of its truth in beautiful and fitting symbols. It is by no means an addition to the written revelation: that revelation is complete and perfect, and needs no addition. But it is a strong corroborative witness to God’s plan; and few students can carefully examine it, marking the harmony of its testimony with that of the written Word, without feeling impressed that its construction was planned and directed by the same divine wisdom, and that it is the pillar of witness referred to by the prophet in the above quotation."-Isa 19:19, 20. (See pp. 314, 315, Vol. III ‘Studies.")

  We agree with Brother Russell in what he here says; and we think it is true that the symbolisms and measurements of this wonderful building corroborate the Scriptural plan in every particular. We do not go to the Pyramid for first-hand information, so far as the Lord’s plan is concerned, but rely upon the written Word for our instruction. If we but observe this rule, we will be guarded against placing reliance upon, say, any dates for future important events (such as the date for the glorification of the last member of the spirit-begotten Church of Christ), which may be claimed to be indicated by time-measurements in the Pyramid, but for which Scriptural proof cannot be cited. I think it is safe for us to say: The Bible first, and the Pyramid’s corroborative evidence second. Had this rule been observed as I think you will agree, so much credence would not have been placed on such dates as 1925 for the resurrection of the Ancient Worthies, or in 1928 for the resurrection of the last member of the church. The Scriptures did not warrant these dates for such important events; and, incidentally, neither did the Pyramid indicate them as was claimed, and as we warned the brethren at the time.

  ==========

  Taken from:
  http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/treatises/edgar%20gp%20discourse.htm

  The main thing I would disagree with in Edgar's discourse is the application of Mark 13:32, which refers to the passing away of the present heavens and earth (Mark 13:31), not to the time when Christ returns. There is a period of time in between the time when Christ intially returns and the time when the heavens and earth pass away. The heaven and earth still have not yet passed away, and we still do not know the day nor the hour as to when this event may take place.