HOW TO IDENTIFY THE TRUE RELIGION

by Fifth Column 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    The whole war argument is insane, considering throughout the Bible God encouraged his people to annihilate other nationalities that did not serve him. Also, if Christians did not go to war, there wouldn't be many if any left, as the Muslims would have done away with all of them during the dark ages. You need someone to protect you, and JWs do a great job of free riding off others in this particular area.

    Religions that refuse War.

    • Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500's)
    • Brethern (Dunkards) groups, including
      • Church of the Brethren
    • Anabaptist groups, including
      • Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
      • Hutterites
      • Schwenkfelders
      • Bruderhof Communities
      • Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
    • Society of Friends (Quakers)
    • Doukhobors - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
    • Molokans - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
    • Some Pentecostal groups such as the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
    • Seven Day Adventists
    • Community of Christ
    • Christadelphians
    • Worldwide Church of God
    • Pax Christi - A Catholic peace movement
    • Fellowship of Reconciliation - A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination. All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
      • Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
      • Methodist Peace Fellowship
      • Baptist Peace Fellowship
      • Orthodox Peace Fellowship
      • Lutheran Peace Fellowship
      • Presbyterian Peace Fellowship

    See http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/war.php

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    If we are to identify a loving, Christian organization, it is not enough to claim it is the "best of the worst". Is it living up to the principle? The shunning policies and the extremes used to avoid association with the "world" cuts off converts from family who never joined, and the dissaffected from family still "in". Jehovah's Witnesses consider it sufficient to show love amongst themselves, and see the highest "love" they give their neighbour is a tract. This is not loving their neighbours. This is not loving their children, their parents! This is immediate, identifiable evidence that every member of the organization can either demonstrate or fail.

    Refusing military service is one degree removed from the principle of "love your neighbour". Not everyone is required to render military service. Those who do may choose non-combative roles (scrubbing potatoes). Besides, JW's do not refuse military service based on pacificim or love of neighbour, but as demonstration of their political neutrality. Otherwise, why not simply idenfity as a conscientious objector and scrub potatoes?

    Then there's the dicey concept of a just war. I'm leaning more towards peaceful demonstration, economic sanction, and diplomacy to end violence. "Good", "Strong", and "Peaceful" nations, by weight of influence, should be able to strong-arm an aggressive leader to the ground. Force may be needed, though, as a last resort to protect the oppressed. This is not the ideal way to love. But standing by while people are oppressed or killed is surely unloving.

    I think of the example of Canadian General, Romeo Dallaire , who stood in the gap and prevented many Tutsi for being killed. Surely this is the moral high ground, the loving act.

  • perfect1
    perfect1

    ask yourself if "love your neighbour" is the second highest command how many religions refuse military service. WTS + 1 or 2 others ?

    Hahaha. How bout if love thy neighbor just means love thy neighbor- whos better at that- witnesses who cant associate for fear of contamination- or every other religion?

    This is aperfect example of how the Bible says something- Love thy neighbor- the watchtower interprets it as dont serve in the military- and then claims that makes them superior to every other religion!

    And also disregards the original meaning!

  • kepler
    kepler

    Somewhere on a previous page, it was mentioned...

    "You do know that this is an ex-JW forum, don't you?"...

    Well, as some probably know already, I am neither current or former, but found JW issues had effected my life. And if you read some of my posts, I would happily work to dismantle the organization doctrine by doctrine.

    But you can't do that by preaching to the already converted choir. And the JWs that are of concern in my life have closed so many lines of communication, that there is about a snowball's chance in a place they do not acknowledge that they would even read, hear or listen.

    All I can do at this point is hone my thinking on this; speak with the people who want to defend an idea or belief and report back that that is exactly what was done. The more such encounters the merrier.

    My two cents on this issue would be to welcome anyone from the other side of the barbed wire and be patient. But don't allow the trolling effect to cause you to go ballistic. Having read some topics where an actual debate has gone on, I think a number of eloquent and serious writers have done well in anwering legitimate concerns of people who are restles in the Paradise Earth holding tank.

    Including this thread - I would add...

  • steve2
    steve2
    JWs do a great job of free riding off others in this particular area.

    Well said jwfacts! The sole reason it is possible for religious-based abstinence of combat is because others do the combat "for" them.

    Those who refuse war duty ride off the backs of others who do that duty.

    Mike Moore said something not dissimilar to this in his documentary Farenheit (full title eludes me): The wealthy, politicians included, do not encourage their adult children to enrol in the military services; rather, it is those from lower socio-economic groups who are over-represented in the military. Hence, the wealthy abstain from allowing their children to be sacrificed to the theatres of war.

    Similarly, with JWs and a host of other combat-abstainers: They do not suffer loss of life on the battlefields. The "most" they suffer - and boy, do they make a loud noise about it! - is confinement during periods of war and/or loss of normal freedoms and some negative press (To be fair, I acknowledge that during WW2, JWs in the States and Canada suffered intense persecution for not supporting the war effort).

    BTW, two other religious groups known for combat-abstinence are the Exclusive Brethren and some Plymouth Brethren.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Fifth Column,

    What an irony! You are quoting the exact same passages from the pamphlet "What the Bible Really Teaches" that alerted me to the fact that the people who had come to my house represented a FALSE, manipulative and deceitful religion.

    I had no focus on Babylon's or Jerusalem's destruction. But I sensed a disconnect from what history actually told. And the more I looked at what these parties of Elders were saying, the more I knew how deceitful it was.

    First of all, even in your rote recitation, it is clear that Cyrus did not destroy Babylon. It simply changed management like it had before and continued MORE prosperously than it had. Alexander liked it so much he made it his capital. Herodotus certainly wasn't mourning it either. And Xenophone's mercenaries were headed for conflict there with a later Darius in a Persian civil war.

    Sennacherib was the one who actually destroyed it. Not 200 years after Isaiah, but in his lifetime. The quotes from the verses stop short of how Isaiah actually tells how. Sennacherib flooded the city and carried off its people into slavery in 689 BC. He wrote about in stone.

    Even the notion of a 70-year desolation is borrowed from the Assyrians. That is what Sennacherib had condemned Babylon too, but Esarhaddon his son rescinded it and that too is described in stone. He restored it because he thought it a religious desecration. True religion: Yours or his?

    There is another problem with this prognostication. Jeremiah 25:12 claims that Babylon's desolation in punishment for Jerusalem's destruction (acting as an instrument of God's justice - go figure?) would be immediate and forever. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah contradict this. E.g., Ezra 8:1. The prophecy did not come to pass just as those against the King of Tyre and Egypt did not. They make me wonder about a great deal. In the case of Ezekiel, does prophet mean a spokesperson for God before power or a propagandist for Nebuchadnezzar in his war-making efforts against other mid east powers? At any rate, the Elders visiting my house have alerted me to what I had not known about before: OT roosters claiming that they were about to cause the sun to rise with their crowing and they often seemed to select completely overcast days.

    I'll save some of my other fact checking expeditions for another day. Or you can just dig around here on the forum. But beside being wrong, that pamphlet is DELIBERATE in its approach. At some level in the editing and writing process, the authors know that Cyrus didn't do what was claimed and that the inclusion of Isaiah's full quote would blow the cover. They also know that Isaiah from chapter 40 on is a fully different author. If Isaiah predicted all of what was to happen to Babylon, then why didn't Daniel cite him when questioned by Babylonian kings instead of concocting still another story?

    As I read more and more of this pamphlet and studied the claims, watched the coercion and experienced some myself, I began to see a multi-level marketing operation dressed in a very peculiar garb, more like the Emperor's clothes. There a pathological fascination with senseless slaughters past and an avid anticipation of them in the future could get you far.

  • poppers
    poppers

    If Fifith Column, sticks around, he has some huge balls.

    Yup, but I suspect he's another hit and run coward.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Yup, but I suspect he's another hit and run coward.

    Well said. The days of JWs actually staying the distance and defending the Watchtower are gone. The most that happens now is a snidely loaded comment designed to irritate. The capacity for reasoned discourse has simply evaporated with the passing of time.

    My JW grandparents would be disgusted with the current weak breed of JWs who, when they do bother to try to address criticism, convey a shocking inability to reason. The modern-breed are mentally locked into making sweeping ad homimen attacks that disregard the facts.

    Oh that the long-deceased old breed of JWs could actually see what cowards their modern-day counterparts have become!

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Perfect1, I believe Fifth Column self-identifies as a saboteur.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Hey poppers! Yah, They want to preach, but don't want to answer anything that gives an honest thought-out rebuttal to their post.

    It's like a drive-by shooting.

    Hope you are well, friend.

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