Seven times

by Jeffro 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Jeffro

  The book of Daniel was almost certainly written in the 2nd century BCE, probably based on some historical accounts mixed with Jewish folklore. With that in mind, and given that there isn't any evidence that Nebuchadnezzar went insane for seven 'times', is there any other period from which the reference to "seven times" at Daniel 4:13-17 may be derived?

  Daniel 4:13-17:

  “‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: “CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field; and with the dew of the heavens let it be wet, and with the beast let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth. 16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. 17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”

  The JWs' interpretation of "seven times" as '2520 years' is based on numerological gymnastics without any clear precedent, and can therefore be discounted. So it would seem that "seven times" refers to either some other period or nothing at all.

  If it does refer to an actual period, then it would likely be based on terms with which the Jews were familiar. The most likely candidate is found at Leviticus chapters 25 and 26. (Leviticus is generally considered to have been completed in the Persian period after 538BCE.)

  Leviticus 25:8:

  "“‘And you must count for yourself seven sabbaths of years, seven times seven years, and the days of the seven sabbaths of years must amount to forty-nine years for you.

  Leviticus 26:27-35:

  “‘If, however, with this YOU will not listen to me and YOU just must walk in opposition to me, 28 I shall then have to walk in heated opposition to YOU, and I, yes, I, shall have to chastise YOU seven times for YOUR sins.

  Leviticus 26:32-35:

  32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.
  34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.

  For how long was Jerusalem desolate (or For how long was the 'tree' in the dream banded)? Jerusalem was destroyed in 587BCE, and the Jews (but not all of them) returned to Jerusalem in 538BCE. Seven 'times'. Seven Sabbaths. Forty-nine years.
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  nuthouse escapee

  Jeffro that is very interesting. I'm no Bible scholar but look forward to hearing what some of the more educated have to say. Great post! Leslie
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  Jeffro

  (Of course, if someone wants to believe that Daniel and Leviticus were written in advance, the point still holds anyway. In any case, even if Daniel were not written in the 2nd century BCE, it still couldn't have been written any earlier than 536BCE according to Daniel 10:1.)
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  nuthouse escapee

  Yes, but it's interesting that it's 49 years hmmmm -Leslie-
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  Leolaia

  Jeffro....I'm afraid you are still looking at the Danielic text through a Watchtower lens. The tree in the vision has nothing to do with the Judah or Jerusalem; the seven times do not pertain to a period during which the kingdom of Judah is cut down. The tree pertains to Nebuchadnezzar and his pride (the metaphor was drawn from Ezekiel 31, where the prideful Pharaoh is likened to a Lebanon cedar that "towered high and set its top within the clouds, v. 10), and Daniel within the story explicitly explains the symbolism of the vision. The seven times, meanwhile, are to be understood as seven years; the half of that duration (3 1/2 times) in Daniel 7:25 is equated to a "half week" (3 1/2 years) in ch. 9 and 1,290 days (also 3 1/2 years) in ch. 12. The OG thus renders the phrase as "seven years". I recall that Ginsberg claimed that this was a calque from Greek, where khronos "time" could be used to mean "year" (see Liddell and Scott, khronos entry A.2c). Leviticus 26:27-35 is however relevant to the seventy weeks oracle in ch. 9; it is the "curse" in the Law mentioned in Daniel's prayer and the rationale by which Gabriel multiplies Jeremiah's 70 years for the desolation of Jerusalem into a total duration of 490 years (culminating in Antiochus IV Epiphanes' defiling of the Temple).

  Also, it doesn't matter whether there is any evidence that Nebuchadnezzar was incapacitated for seven years, for it is fairly clear that the story originally did not concern Nebuchadnezzar; it was the less-famous Nabonidus who was the original figure in the story. The Aramaic Prayer of Nabonidus in the Dead Sea Scrolls tells a very similar story concerning the last king of Babylon:

  4QPrNab: "Words of the pr[ay]er which Nabonidus, king of the la[nd of Baby]lon, the [great] king, prayed [when he was afflicted] by a malignant inflammation, by decree of the G[od Most Hi]gh, in Teiman. [I, Nabonidus,] was afflicted [by a malignant inflammation] for seven years, and was banished far from men, [until I prayed to the God Most High] and an exorcist forgave my sin. He was a Jew fr[om the exiles, who said to me:], 'Make a proclamation in writing, so that glory, exal[tation and hono]ur be given to the name of [the] G[od Most High'. And I wrote as follows: 'When] I was afflicted by a ma[lignant] inflammation […] in Teiman, [by decree of the God Most High,] I prayed for seven years [to all] the gods of silver and gold, [of bronze and iron,] of wood, of stone and of clay, because [I thoug]ht that t[hey were] gods […]' "

  This story has Nabonidus banished far from men because of an affliction, for the same duration of time (seven years), and it was an exiled Jew practiced in the mantic arts who was able to get him to recognize the error of his ways. The parallels however are even more extensive, for ch. 4 similarly has the king speak in the first person and write a proclamation praising God (see v. 1-3 MT and v. 34β OG, which both describe the proclamation that Nebuchadnezzar makes to glorify God). There are other similarities with the Aramaic portion of Daniel; for instance Belshazzar in ch. 5 praises "the gods of gold and silver, bronze and iron, wood and stone" (v. 4). It is clear also that the Nabonidus story is the more original one, since it more closely matches Neo-Babylonian history: It was Nabonidus who left Babylon and dwelled in the desert at Teima for many years. The Danielic story is dependent on anti-Nabonidus propaganda that depicted the derrelict king as irresponsible, ignominious, and insane. Note also that 4QPrNab is intermediate between earlier Babylonian sources about Nabonidus and the biblical story about Nebuchadnezzar. 4QPrNab reduces the duration from ten years to seven, which is then followed by Daniel. The originally anonymous Jew in 4QPrNab was subsequently identified with Daniel in ch. 4. The OG version of Daniel 4, which is thought by some scholars to derive from an older recension of the tales than what is found in the biblical book (ch. 4-6 OG dating to the middle of the third century BC), is also closer to 4QPrNab than the second-century BC Aramaic text. Nebuchadnezzar is said to be driven to the desert during his time of insanity (v. 22 OG), and we read in v. 28 OG: "You are told, King Nebuchadnezzar, that the kingdom of Babylon has been taken away from you and given to another, to a despised man in your household". This appears to be a reminiscence of Belshazzar, Nabonidus' son who was entrusted the kingship during the time of Nabonidus' absence. The confusion between Nabonidus and Nebuchadnezzar was common in the Hellenistic period; Herodotus for instance referred to Nebuchadnezzar as Labynetus I and his successor was Labynetus II (= Nabonidus), the last king of Babylon.
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  Jeffro

  .I'm afraid you are still looking at the Danielic text through a Watchtower lens.

  You are wrong, and your claim that I am examining anything with a so-called 'Watchtower lens' is nothing more than a pathetic insult.

  You will notice that I conditionally stated that if it were to refer to any other period, then it could relate to what is stated in Leviticus (which may or may not be the case despite your opinion to the contrary). I didn't say that it does refer to that. It would be naive to presume that it mustn't refer to more than one thing. There are some strong parallels, and it would be entirely unsurprising to interweave elements of stories (hence the ambiguity of times instead of years) from the the two cultures, especially since Leviticus was also most likely written later as well. It's also unsurprising on the basis that Daniel's '7 weeks' also refer to the same 49-year period. However, at no point did I unequivocally claim that it does relate.

  It's worth pointing out though that a person writing in the 2nd century BCE probably didn't talk to Nebuchadnezzar about a magical dream. The same goes for the claim that an earlier Daniel 'actually' 'interpreted' such a magical dream for Nebuchadnezzar (or Nabonidus). The 'Nebuchadnezzar dream' framework is a plot device.
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  Aware!

  She did not mean to insult you, IMO. I thought your interpretation was very WT-like too, but I'm not insinuating you still think like a JW. I don't believe in 'sola scriptura'.

  I appreciate Leolaia because of the time and effort she puts into her posts, and for free.
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  Jeffro

  I thought your interpretation was very WT-like too, but I'm not insinuating you still think like a JW. I don't believe in 'sola scriptura'.

  It's nothing to do with 'sola scriptura'. The Jews had stories. Many of them borrowed from stories of other nations. They adapted their stories to suit their own folklore. Nothing more.
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  Aware!

  I agree with you and was referring to the Watchtower's way of interpreting scriptures, but none of that matters to me because I don't believe in the Bible. The epic of gilgamesh comes to mind.
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  Jeffro

  none of that matters to me because I don't believe in the Bible.

  There is indeed little reason to believe the fanciful political and theological spin that appears in the Bible. However, that does not mean that everything in the Bible is all false. 'Interpretations' of 'scripture' that require that 'something magical happened' are generally shaky. Nothing of what I've suggested is in that realm, and what I said accords with other historical records relating to periods of time and similar phraseology in Leviticus and 2 Chronicles.