This is a fascinating threat. Never really though about this particular subject before
Did God Invent Swords? - Logic Fallacies and Anachronisms
by cognisonance 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
King Solomon
TD ASKS:
Just becuase one is making logic fallicies in an argument, doesn't mean their overall position is automatically wrong.
True, but it seems to me that the overall message of the article is that God is not responsible in any way for violence among humans and animals (?)
No, my reading is that the primarly point of the QFR article is to address an anachronism (sin crouching at the entrance) found in Genesis, which is interesting, as I'd never considered that one until the WT pointed it out, LOL! Your example was used to make the point the WT was making.
Of course, such anachronisms are dismissed by claiming that Moses was writing using terms and concepts that his contemporary audience would understand, etc. That's why I like the ones that show God's ignorance of basic anatomical facts, eg God's belief that men thought with their hearts, not their brains. Unless Moses changed God's QUOTED WORDS to accord with the best-known science of the day, then either "Moses" or YHWH must take the fall for the ignorance on display.
-
blondie
Remember too that God gave Adam and Eve animal skins to wear, killing animals, they ones that were at peace with humans, and not for a sacrifice as Abel killed sheep for a sacrifice. Why could God not have provided wool clothing? Did Adam and Eve continue to make hide clothing, somehow know how to shear sheep, spin thread, knit clothing? Arggh!
-
King Solomon
Blondie said:
Remember too that God gave Adam and Eve animal skins to wear
Yet interestingly, YHWH later demanded that man institute the ritual of animal sacrifice to atone for sins, since He CLEARLY was UNABLE to handle animals for Himself....
Biblical logic!
-
Leolaia
We need not conclude that our loving Creator was the first one to make what we know as swords. Adam and Eve saw turning in front of the angels something that was blazing. What exactly was it? By the time Moses wrote the book of Genesis, swords were well-known and used in warfare. (Genesis 31:26; 34:26; 48:22; Exodus 5:21; 17:13) So Moses’ words “the flaming blade of a sword” enabled his readers to visualize to a degree what existed at the entrance of Eden. The information known in Moses’ day contributed to the understanding of such matters. And the language Moses employed must have been accurate, for Jehovah had it included in the Bible.—2 Timothy 3:16.
Swords were definitely mentioned in the OT as weapons in the divine sphere. "When the donkey saw the angel of Yahweh standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it turned off the road into a field" (Numbers 22:23) , "David looked up and saw the angel of Yahweh standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem" (1 Chronicles 21:16), "It [Behemoth] ranks first among the works of God, yet its Maker can approach it with his sword" (Job 40:19), "In that day, Yahweh will punish with his sword—his fierce, great and powerful sword—Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea" (Isaiah 27:1; cf. the very similar language in the Baal Cycle in KTU 1.5 i 1-4, and cf. Job 26:12-13, Psalm 74:12-15, 89:9-10, Isaiah 51:9-10 for other Chaoskampf references involving Yahweh and the sea monster) etc. There are similar references in the Dead Sea Scrolls: "All those who are r[eady for] the war shall go and camp opposite the king of the Kittim and opposite all the army of Belial, assembled with him for the day of ven[geance] by God's sword" (1QM 15:2-3), "I did not do it again, because Yahweh our God crushed him with the edge of the sword" (4Q373 1:6), etc. The idea isn't that the divine realm learned about swords from humankind, but rather the knowledge of weapons was transmitted to humans from the divine: "Asael [one of the fallen angels] taught men to manufacture swords of iron and breastplates of bronze" (4Q202 2:26). This reflects older Canaanite ideas; one may readily think of the craftsman god Kothar-wa-Hasis bestowing a divinely made bow to the son of Danel (a story that might underlie Ezekiel's references to Danel in Ezekiel 14).
-
Cold Steel
This is a fascinating threat. Never really though about this particular subject before
Well, when you have swords, that's what you get...threats. That's why we keep improving our weaponry!
-
bats in the belfry
Let's not forget:
That original Paradise existed until the global flood of Noah's day. So did the cherubs guarding it for 1600+ years.
Meanwhile, maybe humans tried to figure out how those "chopping blades" worked (?) and invented swords in the wake of trial and error.
-
cognisonance
Cold Steel: I can't believe the Watchtower is talking about who came up with the idea of swords! Talk about stoopidity (duh!)…..
As others have answered, it's because some who don't believe the bible is the infallible word of God point to such accounts as examples that it is the product of human storytelling, not of holy spirit.
The QFR article attempts to refute the main anachronism (in the question), and then ironically uses two more anachronisms in a way to show that the first one is not a problem. In reality, all three anachronisms seem to be the focus of the article and the infallibility of the Bible is defended, albeit with logic fallacies as mentioned (too bad the writers didn't just stick to exposing the distinction without a difference fallacy (DwaD), as TR explained, to point out one problem with the logic used by those that attack the bible based on the flaming sword account, as that would have been somewhat more convincing).
All that would be needed regarding the flaming sword account would be to drop the "We need not conclude that our loving Creator..." argument and stick to the idea that God did employ a divine "weapon" of sorts; that any distinction is without a difference between that flaming "sword" and swords that man created (both are instruments for killing).
So in a way they are exposing DwaD fallacy, but then obfuscate their argument with the red herring of appealing to consequences of a belief, and by doing so the DwaD point (sword vs. some lethal "thing") being made contridicts the red herring used (a loving God would not be the first to create a weapon).
-
jwfacts
Well spotted.
enabled his readers to visualize to a degree what existed at the entrance of Eden
If they weren't swords, then the Bible could have used what they actually were. Alternatively, it could have used some other item, such as flaming branches, or flaming steak knives.
We need not conclude that our loving Creator was the first one to make what we know as swords.
So "our loving Creator" could not have made the first sword, but he could drown the entire world with a flood, and later command the Israelites to use swords to conduct genocide whilst warring with the surrounding nations. Did the writer of the article stop reading at Genesis chapter 3?
-
King Solomon
There ya' go again, with all that needlessly-complicated 'abstract thinking', cognisonance... That college edumacation really ruined your mind!