No to Wizard toys! Yes to pagan demigods!

by Londo111 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Londo111

  From the 8/15/2007 Watchtower, page 32:

  HAVE you ever read some of the Iliad or the Odyssey, two great epic poems of ancient Greece? Those are thought to have been composed during the ninth or the eighth century B.C.E. How do these works compare with the Bible, which began to be written many centuries earlier? The volume The Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible observes: “The Bible has no fewer than 429 references to writing and to written documents. This is significant if it is remembered that the Iliad provides only one reference to writing and there is none in the Odyssey.”

  I remember reading the Odyssey in High School...a tale of warriors, magic, gods, and demigods. The Society teaches that these tales come from Noah's sons recounting pre-Flood stories of demons and their offspring. Why is this okay to read a tale featuring pagan gods that the Greeks actaully believed in--while pure fantasy is condemended as Satanic?
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  King Solomon

  I really don't see what point the WT is trying to make with this bit:

  The volume The Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible observes: “The Bible has no fewer than 429 references to writing and to written documents. This is significant if it is remembered that the Iliad provides only one reference to writing and there is none in the Odyssey.”

  Are they trying to say that the Bible plagarizes other secular texts of it's day, as if that's INCREASING it's credibility?

  If they have a point by mentioning that factoid, I'm not seeing what it is.... It strikes me as a non-sequitor statement (possibly because it's removed from the original context). Anyone here can 'splain?
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  Leolaia

  Don't forget, the Iliad helps one understand the Bible!

  *** Rbi8 p. 1575 4D “Tartarus” ***
  
  “Tartarus” is found only in 2Pe 2:4. It is included in the Greek verb tar·ta·ro′o, and so in rendering the verb, the phrase “by throwing them into Tartarus” has been used.
  
  In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tar′ta·ros denotes an underground prison as far below Hades as the earth is below heaven. Those confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods, spirits, namely, Cronus and the other Titans who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter). It was the prison established by the mythical gods for the spirits whom they had driven from the celestial regions, and it was below the Hades where human souls were thought to be confined at death. In mythology tar′ta·ros was the lowest of the lower regions and a place of darkness. It enveloped all the underworld just as the heavens enveloped all that was above the earth. Therefore, in pagan Greek mythology tar′ta·ros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits, and a place of darkness and abasement.
• 

  breakfast of champions

  “Tartarus” is found only in 2Pe 2:4. It is included in the Greek verb tar·ta·ro′o, and so in rendering the verb, the phrase “by throwing them into Tartarus” has been used.

  In mythology tar′ta·ros was the lowest of the lower regions and a place of darkness.

  I love how they distinguish the REAL Tartarus and the MYTHICAL Tartarus.
• 

  Londo111

  Of course, the Society's teaching on Tartarus makes no sense with that in view. As a Witness, I was obligated to believe that the demons were in a spiritually and mentally darkened state, though physically unencumbered. But the writer of 2 Peter obviously has the Hellenistic viewpoint in mind.
• 

  King Solomon

  Leo, what do you make of this:

  The Bible has no fewer than 429 references to writing and to written documents

  Are they actually admitting influences eg Epic of Gilgamesh for the Noahide Flood, or strong parallels found between Hesiod's Theogony (Prometheus and Adam and Eve), etc?

  Off the top of my head, I cannot think of ONE explicit reference to an ancient document that appears in the Bible (i.e. the Bible is not like the Awake, which regularly quotes secular publications like Time, Newsweek, US News and World Report, etc).
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  Leolaia

  I think most of those are examples of inner-biblical quotation and allusion. There are many references in the historiographical books also to sources that are not extant. And a few quotations or references to pseudepigraphal Jewish sources. And of course, there are many references to writing since writing was quite common in the Levant in the first millennium BC.
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  King Solomon

  Thanks for the response. Hope you don't mind having your brain picked. :)

  Leo said:

  I think most of those are examples of inner-biblical quotation and allusion.

  Aha, that's probably it (eg Jesus, with his "you've heard it said" bit, referring to the Torah). Seems a bit of a junk statistic, tho, as it's (yet) another example of the Bible being self-referential (eg faith is defined in the Bible as being based on the Bible, itself)...

  There are many references in the historiographical books also to sources that are not extant. And a few quotations or references to pseudepigraphal Jewish sources. And of course, there are many references to writing since writing was quite common in the Levant in the first millennium BC.

  Hmmm, then if so, it seems a bit of a questionable claim for WT to make/parrot, esp if the writings are not extant? Guess we just have to take it on faith.

  Oh, this part caught my eye, too:

  Those (Iliad & Odyssey) are thought to have been composed during the ninth or the eighth century B.C.E. How do these works compare with the Bible, which began to be written many centuries earlier?

  Does that claim pass the "sniff test"? Obviously the Torah was completed/redacted much later, but what's the thinking of when the earliest-recorded parts of the Torah began to be set into writing (and I realize there are no extant versions of these proto-writings)?
• 

  Leolaia

  what's the thinking of when the earliest-recorded parts of the Torah began to be set into writing (and I realize there are no extant versions of these proto-writings)?

  The oldest parts of the OT date to between the twelfth and tenth centuries BC (the dates vary according to the scholar). Most agree that the Song of the Sea in Exodus 15 (which apparently the redactor misunderstood when he inserted it into the exodus narrative) and the Song of Deborah in Judges 5 are the oldest pieces of literature in the Bible. The Hebrew in these two poems is especially archaic. Note that this pertains to the date when these poems were composed, not necessarily when they were set in writing. Songs can survive relatively unchanged in oral tradition before actually being written down.
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  NOLAW

  And the same applies to O & I (composed/set in writting). Homer may not have been the single author of O & I. Parts may have been composed even earlier even in a different language. Parts may have been added at a later time. The ninth century cap is reached mainly by the role attributed to the Phoenicians as merchants in Odyssey.

  (quotes from wikipedia)

  It is probable, therefore, that the story of the Trojan War as reflected in the Homeric poems derives from a tradition of epic poetry founded on a war which actually took place.

  an inscription from Ischia in the Bay of Naples, ca. 740 BC, appears to refer to a text of the Iliad; likewise, illustrations seemingly inspired by the Polyphemus episode in the Odyssey are found on Samos, Mykonos and in Italy, dating from the first quarter of the seventh century BC.

  Trojan War: Traditional dating:ca. 1194–1184 BC Modern dating: between 1260 and 1240 BC.

  Watchtower can you provide us with the oldest inscription referring to the Bible? Since you will not here it goes:

  two silver rolls (the Ketef Hinnom scrolls) from the 7th or 6th century BC show a version of the priestly blessing

  -

  And time to repeat myself

  Oldest (*) Greek writing 5.000-4.500 BC (much much earlier than the creation of Adam and the 'invention' of writting according to the Bible Watchtower and milleniums earlier than the supposed 'invention' of the so called 'Phoenician' alphabet):

  

  Versus

  Oldest Hebrew writing 1000 BC:

  

  Have a nice day...

  NOLAW