How Did God Communicate His 1914 Decision?

by Cold Steel 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Is the Organization a self-appointed group of people and is it any better or worse than the rest of “Christendom?” And why does it avoid the use of the term CHURCH?

    One fascinating thing is that the WBTS has repeatedly published the claim that in 1914, Jesus returned “invisibly” and inspected all the religions then on the Earth. After judging all of them, He chose the Watchtower organization in 1919 as the religion that most perfectly matched Jehovah’s Church. Of course one JW posted this as part of an answer to a poster:

    The measuring of the temple is similar to the inspection to which you refer and, btw, we did not measure up! That is why Jehovah allowed the two witnesses to be killed in 1918 which included our 8 officers of the Watchtower Society sentenced to four terms of 20 years I think in the Atlanta Penitentiary a total of 80 years. And our headquarters, Bethel, was closed down. Then, in 1919, we were figuratively speaking resurrected back to life. [See Revelation 11, which the JWs very badly interpret...or misinterpret]

    If someone can fill me in on the two prophets here, please do. If the eight officers (one prophet) and Bethel (the second prophet) were to witness for 3.5 years, be killed and resurrected 3.5 days later, the math does not seem to work. Both prophets were symbolically killed in 1918 and then (figuratively speaking) were resurrected in 1919. Pulling out my super duper calculator, that comes to...lemme see...uh...one year. How does that compute?? And is the Organization really saying that the measuring of the temple is a prophecy of God measuring them? Do I still hear the sound of stretching? Anyway...onward!

    First, wouldn’t it be up to God to organize His Church and not leave it up to a bunch of Bible students?

    How did He communicate this to the Organization? It’s all a bit confusing. Amos declared: “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” In the next verse, he declares that when “the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?” (Amos 3:7-8)

    If the Lord does something like choosing a religion, wouldn’t He reveal it to His servants? Who among the Bible students would qualify as a prophet? And if Jehovah speaks, who can prophesy? No one among the students did as far as I can determine. The point is, though, is that they did prophesy! Once they announce that Jehovah has made a decision, they have effectively donned the mantle of a prophet. For He will reveal it to His servants the prophets.

    But how would He do that?

    Anciently He delivered decisions like that via angels, but none of the Bible students made such a claim. Sometimes He used dreams, but no student claimed to have a dream. Once He wrote a prophesy on a wall, but again, the students made no such claim. Was it a voice! Alas, no student ever claimed to hear a voice. Finally, He may have personally visited a Bible student and spoken to Him “face to face.” Again, no dice.
    Perhaps He revealed it through an ancient prophet! But when I searched for “1914” using my “Search” button, but it came up clear. I would have checked the Bible Code, but I don’t have the software. Besides, that wouldn’t have lived up to the Amos 3:7 requirement. So I’m back to Square One…sigh!

    Which leads us back to how we know the great Jehovah has made this momentous decision.

    I'm at a loss. What am I missing according to the Governing Body? Has it ever addressed this issue?

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    A lot of that is a misrepresentation/inaccurate portrayal of what JW's teach. I don't understand what you are asking since your questions are based on something JW's do not teach.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    I'm asking how the knowledge that the Watchtower Society was God's choice of all religions was conveyed to the Bible Students.

    I'm pointing out that when God does something, He reveals it to His servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)

    Did the Bible students claim to be prophets?

    If yes, are they literal prophets or figurative prophets?

    If no, then to what prophets did God convey that happening?

    That's what I'm asking. The two prophets of Revelation 11 was something the JW (on another site) brought up.

    What is it that you're saying I have wrong?

    Are you presently a JW? Or are you a former JW?

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    "Recovery" is a troll. JW's do teach exactly what you outlined, or rather, the WT does, most JW's are as hazy as hell about 1919, they couldn't express clearly, and back up, what the WT claims.

    But you make a good point, if J.C chose them in 1919, how did he tell them so, and why not until, to use WTSpeak, wait for it.....evidently, many years afterward ?

    Come to that, how does J.C guide the GB now ?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Thanks for the head's up, Phyzzi. What I originally wrote is based on many web sites, even the JW official site.

    So how, pray tell, did the General Body of church authorities receive the go ahead to set up things?

    • Why are the Jehovah's Witnesses a CHURCH or not? And why would they not be the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST instead of a church of Jehovah? Jesus said, "Upon this rock I will build my CHURCH." The church was not a Church of God, or a Church of Jehovah. It was the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.
    • Again, how did Jehovah convey the news to the Bible students that He had selected THEM? They certainly don't explain it on their website. It's like we're supposed to just take their word for it, right?
  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Is the Organization a self-appointed group of people and is it any better or worse than the rest of “Christendom?” Of course it is much better than Christendom. There have been shed blood 'in the name of God' in war or crusades or anything of that sort by JW's. There has never been anyone burned to a stake or killed because they disagreed with something JW's teach. There have never been any mettling in politics and government disobeying Jesus' clear command to stay separate from the world. Instead of clinging to human traditions and "Christianized" pagan philosophies, JW's are humble enough to discard any wrong teachings that are not in harmony with God's word the Bible. Isn't the church still promoting it's same pagan doctrines it was 1,000 years ago?

    And why does it avoid the use of the term CHURCH? We have no objection to the word church, it is simply used less often so that JW's are distinguished from the various religions of Christendom. A distinction has to be made. We do not want to ever be considered on par with Christendom's churches.

    The measuring of the temple is similar to the inspection to which you refer and, btw, we did not measure up! That is why Jehovah allowed the two witnesses to be killed in 1918 which included our 8 officers of the Watchtower Society sentenced to four terms of 20 years I think in the Atlanta Penitentiary a total of 80 years. And our headquarters, Bethel, was closed down. Then, in 1919, we were figuratively speaking resurrected back to life . [See Revelation 11, which the JWs very badly interpret...or misinterpret] If someone can fill me in on the two prophets here, please do. If the eight officers (one prophet) and Bethel (the second prophet) were to witness for 3.5 years, be killed and resurrected 3.5 days later, the math does not seem to work. Both prophets were symbolically killed in 1918 and then (figuratively speaking) were resurrected in 1919. Pulling out my super duper calculator, that comes to...lemme see...uh...one year. How does that compute?? And is the Organization really saying that the measuring of the temple is a prophecy of God measuring them? Do I still hear the sound of stretching? Anyway...onward!

    The two prophets (two witnesses) do not represent the eight officers/Bethel. Page 164 of the Revelation book talks about this when it says: "The John class had to preach this message for a definitely stated time: 1,260 days, or 42 months, the same length of time that the holy city was to be trampled underfoot.." The two witnesses = the John class = the anointed remnant. It later goes on to say: "The fact that they were symbolized by two witnesses confirms to us that their message was accurate and well founded.." So it is a misrepresentation of what JW's to teach to say that the two witnesses were Bethel and the eight men who were resurrected.

    We know that the anointed remnant (as a whole) stopped preaching collectively in June of 1918. So we count back 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) and this brings us to December 1914. So the prophecy finds its fulfillment from December 1914 to June 1918. Now, notice Revelation 11:7-11 "And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled. 9 And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. 10 And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. 12 And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: “Come on up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them."

    This cannot be a literal 3 1/2 day period. Why? Because the Bible says these corpses were laid on the broad way of Sodom and Egypt, where Jesus was impaled. Then the nations and the peoples and the tribes will look at the dead corpses for 3 1/2 days. They rejoice and celebrate for 3 1/2 days. Notice the scripture says 'they stood upon their feet' when the spirit of life from God entered into them. Their literal corpses have been revived and they have been resurrected and are now going to heaven. But 1 Corinthians 15 tells us 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God'. This large combination of things leads us to conclude that these are not 3.5 literal days, or 84 hours. Further proof of this in found back in verse 7 "And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.." Most people agree that the wild beast is the Anglo-American world power. Notice it says the wild beast 'ascends out of the abyss', meaning it appears during this time period. It is in the present tense. This had to have occurred sometime after the Wild Beast emerged (1914). Now if we interpret this literally, then the entire world looked at two dead bodies for 3 1/2 days and then saw them go up to heaven (two literal fleshly bodies). So then what does the 3 1/2 days represent? The Revelation book on page 168 says: Notice that in examining the experiences of God’s people at this time, it appears that while the 42 months represent a literal three and a half years, the three and a half days do not represent a literal period of 84 hours. Likely, the specific period of three and a half days is mentioned twice (in verses 9 and 11) to highlight that it would be only a short period compared with the actual three and a half years of activity that precede it."

  • OneDayillBeFree
    OneDayillBeFree

    Okay... So ummm like how did Jehovah communicate his 1914 decision again? This time in plain English and to the point people, (especially you Recovery). This has always bothered me personally because if there's no CONCRETE PROOF that ANYONE could EASILY look at and come to the SAME CONCLUSION Without all that mumble jumble, that it was in fact GOD directing earthly men then it would be discarded as false and correctly forgotten.

    I mean it would only be in harmony with scripture that EVERYONE on earth (JW/EX-JW/Mormon/Catholic/Atheist) would know that Jehovah had done something!

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Is the Organization a self-appointed group of people and is it any better or worse than the rest of “Christendom?” Of course it is much better than Christendom. There have been shed blood 'in the name of God' in war or crusades or anything of that sort by JW's. There has never been anyone burned to a stake or killed because they disagreed with something JW's teach. There have never been any meddling in politics and government disobeying Jesus' clear command to stay separate from the world. Instead of clinging to human traditions and "Christianized" pagan philosophies, JW's are humble enough to discard any wrong teachings that are not in harmony with God's word the Bible. Isn't the church still promoting it's same pagan doctrines it was 1,000 years ago?

    Thanks for the response, Recovery. Still, you have not answered the question.

    My church can make the same claim. We haven't burned anyone at the stake. As for meddling in politics and government, there is no "clear command" to stay separate from the world. In fact, Jesus said we were to be in the world, but not of the world. Voting and being a member of the armed service is nowhere condemned in the scriptures, nor did the early church fathers or any of the early apocryphal writings not in the Bible ever indicate that it was forbidden. Of course, one must use one's own conscience in these matters, but God's people have always supposed to have been in the world but not of the world — yet they supported the crown when called to service in the Old Testament. And before the crown, they fought under the prophets, holy men of God.

    You also say that the churches of today are "still promoting [the] same pagan doctrines it was 1,000 years ago." In some cases, yes, but what pagan doctrines are you talking about? The JWs have preached that the doctrine of man having a spirit was a pagan doctrine when the early church and the Old Testament church both taught that man had a spirit. Not only that, but that he existed before he came to the Earth. This is supported by many accounts of Near Death Experiences (NDEs) where people have visited the spirit world and met people they remembered from before their birth into mortality. Some had lived hundreds of years before; others, several thousand. And then there are the words of God to Jeremiah: " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

    In short, Jeremiah was called of God and ordained a prophet before he was born. And the apostles asked the Lord concerning the man who was born blind: " Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9) Bible commentators have long answered this by saying that it was an old Hebrew trandition that people could sin before birth, and that the consequences of such sins resulted in human defects during the lifetimes of the people who sinned. Still, Jesus did not correct them by instructing them that they were in error for asking such a question. Instead, he put a new spin on it by saying, no, the man was born blind so " that the works of God should be made manifest in him." This also is confirmed in many NDEs where many people were born blind or deaf, yet when they visited Paradise, they could both see and hear.

    In the New Testament, the body was frequently referred to as a "tabernacle" inhabited by a spirit. Other scriptures referred to the body as a garment that could be put off. Paul stated: " For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:22-23) Why didn't he say he had a desire to fall asleep in Christ, but to abide with you is more needful for you?" Too many "soul sleepers" chase after Ecclesiastes, where Solomon states there is no wisdom in the grave; however, Solomon had lived a wicked life and his body was bowed down with age. His meanderings had to do with those things that occurred "under the sun." It was not an eschatological writing, but a philosophical writing. He had married outside the faith, he had erected heathen altars to false gods. He had sinned mightily and to him the afterlife held nothing but pain and disappointment. He also wasn't a prophet, but a king.

    In short, your answer is that by the process of elimination you know that the Jehovah's Witnesses is the only true and living church in the world. But that's not an answer. The question of how God conveyed this acceptance to the Bible Students remains unanswered.

    You also mentioned the two prophets of Revelation 11. Here John is speaking about the final assault on Jerusalem by Gog, the Beast or the Antichrist (Ezekiel 38-39) These are not figurative prophets in my view, but literal. Some believe them to be Enoch and Elijah or John and Elijah, all who were taken into heaven without tasting death. But there's nothing to prevent them from being two new unknown prophets. These prophets will have the literal power to call down fire and cause famine and draughts in defense of Jerusalem. (See also Zechariah 12-14)

    Their literal corpses have been revived and they have been resurrected and are now going to heaven. But 1 Corinthians 15 tells us 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God'. This large combination of things leads us to conclude that these are not 3.5 literal days, or 84 hours. Further proof of this in found back in verse 7 "And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.." Most people agree that the wild beast is the Anglo-American world power. Notice it says the wild beast 'ascends out of the abyss', meaning it appears during this time period. It is in the present tense. This had to have occurred sometime after the Wild Beast emerged (1914).

    This exegesis is one of the most bizarre I've ever read, no offense. And it's an excellent example of why biblical interpretations should never be of any private interpretation. You say that the two prophets can't stand up literally and ascend into heaven because "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. This is true, but when men are resurrected, they will not resurrect as spirits, but will resurrect as flesh and bone animated by spirit, just as Jesus was. Remember that Jesus went out of his way to show his disciples that he was not a spirit, for "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see that I have." See? Flesh and bone. As a spiritual being, Jesus could go through walls and ceilings. He also could travel great distances with the speed of thought. Blood was the corruptible element in his body that did not course through his veins as a resurrected being. The same thing is true for the two prophets. They stood on their feet and ascended into heaven. Keep in mind that they don't ascent to heaven, but ascend to meet the returning Christ, whose feet will stand at that day upon the Mount of Olives. An earthquake will rend the city, part to the north and part to the south; and the fleeing Jews will run into the great rift. When they see him, one will ask where he got the wounds in his hands; and he will reply that he received them in the house of his friends (see Zechariah 12-14). At that point, there will be a great lamentation throughout the land, for they will realize that their fathers killed him in the Meridian of Time and that they killed their Messiah.

    The beast also is not the Anglo-American world power, but a great army that comes from the North. My own theory is that it will be China or Turkey. The only thing we know is that whatever the army of the beast is, it will be combined with the armies that surround Israel (Zechariah 12). The two prophets will minister in Jerusalem, and by the time the armies of the Beast come down upon the Holy City, the United States will no longer be a world power. Otherwise, it would have come to the defense of Israel.

    Finally, regarding 1914, certainly you know it's just another year dreamed up by the Bible students. When Christ did not return in that year, a new spin was placed on the prophecy. Instead of being a literal prophecy, it was an "invisible" return. It's kind of like transubstantiation. You take the tokens of wine and bread and it invisibly transforms to the literal blood and flesh of the Savior. Because it's invisible, there's no way to prove it or disprove it. Personally, if I were going to pick a date, it would be 1861 or 1865. When the American Civil War ended, the world pretty much felt that a new era had dawned. All the old ways of doing warfare were done away and the word of officers in the field no longer was held with any honor. In 1866, the world had literally changed. Even today, people come from all over the world to visit Gettysburg — especially military men who wanted to see where elements of the battle took place. There is certainly nothing in the Bible that points to 1914.

  • mP
    mP

    Simple answer is the same way he communicated to the ancient jewish high priests and leaders... via magic rocks and entrails. The main device of communication were Urim and thuranim, basically a very ancient ouija board. Ask any question and if you dont like the first answer try again!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim

    "Urim" redirects here. For the kibbutz of the same name, see Urim, Israel. For Urim Signals Intelligence Base, see Urim SIGINT Base. For the ancient city of Urim, see Ur.

    Part of a series of articles on
    Priesthood in Judaism
    Menorah
    Kohen · Recognition of priestly descent
    Priestly covenant
    Roles[show]
    High Priests[show]
    Twenty-four kohanic gifts[show]
    Clothing[show]
    Miscellaneous topics[show]

    In ancient Israelite religion and culture, Urim and Thummim (Hebrew: ?????? ??????? ‎, Standard ha?Urim v?haTummim Tiberian ha?Ûrîm w?hatTummîm) is a phrase from the Hebrew Scriptures or Torah associated with the hoshen (High Priest'sbreastplate), divination in general, and cleromancy in particular. Most scholars suspect that the phrase refers to specific objects involved in the divination. [1]

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    We are not going to get an answer to the thread title question from Recovery....................evidently.

    The point I made about right now too is valid, they claim to be "God's Spirit Directed Organization".

    So the process of some spirit directing them is at work at present, they claim. Now, they have on occasion explained this process as "prayerfully considering what God's Word the Bible has to say on a matter". Well, plenty of religions can do that, and probably come up with different conclusions, but who is to say which one is "Spirit Directed" ?

    In the "Revelation.....Climax" book the claim is made that somehow they communicate with the members of the "John Class" or 144,000 who are in Heaven.

    ????? speaking with the spirits of the dead ? something condemned many times in the Bible ?

    Whatever "spirit" is directing them it sure cannot be God's Holy Spirit, with all the cock-ups, changes in Doctrine and false predictions etc etc this malevolent spirit which feeds them lies constantly must simply be a Demon.

    WT/JW's are therfore really a Demon Directed Organization.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit