Can a JW PLEASE answer my question on baptism?

by Sunspot 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    Witnesses always strongly state that they strictly follow the commands of Jesus and all bible principles.

    I have SUCH an important (to me, anyway) question that I would appreciate a meaningful answer to:

    At Matthew 28:19, Jesus issues a DIRECT COMMAND to his followers, that being: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing then in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

    WHY doesn't the WBTS then FOLLOW this command, which has NEVER changed, and taken it upon themselves to ADD TO and ALTER what the bible clearly states on this?

    I just DON'T understand this......

    Will someone who is/was an elder, or an active JW please answer this for me?

    Shredded families and ruined lives;
    The WBTS has MUCH to answer for......

    Hugs,

    Sunspot

  • Celia
    Celia

    We all know by now that JWs aren't Christians at all.
    They don't believe that Jesus is important at all. it doesn't matter what they say, it's just words, no action...
    So why obey his commands, better make up new commands that promote their little sick doctrines....

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    My view on this..
    The focus is on "God". Jehovah.Hes the big cahuna.
    Jesus is a secondary figure in the mythology.
    The holy spirit is some kind of airy fairy thing that noone seems too sure about what it does.
    IMO.

  • zev
    zev

    and don't forget the all important question of loyalty...
    the one your asked to shout a resounding "YES" to...
    ...the loyalty oath to the watchtower publishing company.

    hurl hurl hurl.

    anyone got a barf bag for me?

    -Zev
    Learn about the Wtbts and the U.N.
    ** http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69 **

  • Bang
    Bang

    << Witnesses always strongly state that they strictly follow the commands of Jesus and all bible principles. >>

    But they're lying.

    "do the SAME as the Samaritan"

    Seen them all doing that one?

    Bang

  • Justin
    Justin

    The obvious understanding of Jesus' words is to perform the baptism "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," actually using these words. That's why it's known (other than in JW land) as the "baptismal formula."

    But, from what I remember, the WT explanation goes something like this: JWs believe in a Father, a Son, and a holy spirit. However, the relationship that exists between these is not the same as the relationship outlined in the doctrine of the Trinity. So, if JWs explain to the baptismal candidates what the "true" relationship is, the baptism in fact is taking place in the name of the Father, Son and holy spirit without actually using the baptismal formula. This explanation is supposedly given at the talk preceeding a mass baptism at a JW convention (assembly).

    I personally do not remember if this is what is actually stressed at all the baptismal talks. Perhaps it is, but if so, it is simply one point among others (the primary one being that the candidates are dedicating themselves to Jehovah [and don't forget the organization!]).

    Maybe there's a "live one" out there who will let us know if this is the WT's current teaching.

    Justin

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Sunspot: The June 1, 1985 Watchtower, page 30, gives this two question formula:

    1. "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?"

    This question does not really involve being 'baptized in the name of the Father and Son' ... rather it is a statement of belief and action. The Bible never really states that the Apostles applied any specific 'formula' when people got baptized ... as there is no required formula. They early Christians did use similar expressions as Jesus put forth. The above question is somewhat religious legalism, but it also is fundamentally okay, sort of, yet has little to do with being saved by Grace due to faith alone in Jesus Christ.

    The second question is:

    2. "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"
    This is legalism par excellence! The Holy Spirit is never really mentioned, at least not directly. Rather the organization is placed into an important position. JWs are brought into a legal arrangement, and here are the important implications:

    1. Identification as a JW: The individual is combining an act of faith in Christ's sacrifice with taking on a religious label. This recognition has legal implications with respect to their obligations to the organization that directs the JWs.

    2. Association "with" the organization: While JWs use to say they were members of the Watchtower Society, they generally recognized that there were no Church membership roles. The Society does not now, nor has it ever, considered any JW a member of the Watch Tower corporations, except for the approximate 500 stock-holders of its corporations. The term 'association with' has its basis in the law of agency. If a person gets an insurance sales license, they join up with an insurance company as a agent. They are not an employee or member of the corporation, but their license is under the General or Managing Agent, and they work in 'association with' that General Agent. The salesperson is legally self-employed, but to remain in 'association with' the General Agent, they must abide by her/his rules and office policies.

    This also has important legal features with respect to Church Government. Because of the 'separation' between Church and State doctrine in our nation, religions can have whatever rules and government they want. And if a person joins a religion, and accepts its rules, and understands that their 'identification' and 'association with' means abiding by its rules, then they have 'no legal recourse' should the religion decide to boot them out for some infraction against their policies and rules; whether written, oral, expressed, or implied. The religious organization holds all power, authority, and is final judge in how it carries out its procedures.

    The reason the WTS created the 1985 Baptism Formula?: Because as the 1970s ended, there were many who left regarding the failed prophecy of Armageddon in 1975. Along with this, there was the major shake up at Bethel in 1980-81 with the resignation of Ray Franz, and disfellowshipping of many other Bethelites, including their Gilead Registrar, Ed Dunlap. There was a drop in overall attendance at meetings, time reported in Service, attendance at Conventions, and a rise in JWs who walked away, becomeing inactive, but not Disfellowshipped ... leaving the possibility open for them to influence active JWs remaining in the religion.

    Additionally, I have no doubt that there were some lawsuits, or at least "manuevering" by some inactive JWs to prevent the Elders from taking official DF action These former JWs may have contended that because the Society always said that there were "no membership" roles, that there was no corresponding method to DF someone who was in fact not a member or had no "legal" association with the Watch Tower Society.

    So, the Society lawyers and leaders had to come up with a new formula that closed this 'loop-hole' so that they could terminate the association of any JW, yet not consider them a member of the Watch Tower corporations. The term 'in association with' was the way out for them ... gave them the same rights and benefits as a General or Managing Agent has with licensed sales people: No direct legal membership, yet the legal means to terminate association.

    This is the reason for their formula ... it forces the new JWs to accept the Watch Tower system of Church Government, lock, stock, and barrel.

    What about JWs baptized prior to 1985?: These JWs could still make headaches for the Society by claiming that they never recognized God's spirit-directed organization. The Society would have to then cite earlier District COnventions where the new formula was presented as a "Resolution" to be adopted ... all saying "YES" passed the Resolution. Even if one said nothing or even said "NO", if the majority said "YES" then the new rule went into effect.

    Could a JW still make an argument against the new rule?: Yes, if they could force the Society, through the courts to "prove" that a "majority" of all JWs said "yes" all aournd the worlkd at all the District Conventions in the year that the "Resolution" was supposedly passed. If they could not produced such results, then the JW could argue to have any affiliation with the Society annulled, and be treated as thogh such a rule never existed.

    The problem is getting such a case into the civilian courts ... because the courts are reluctant to hear cases involving matters of church government. A jw, or former JW ouwld have to show cause, that there was some harm brought to them in ways that transcended the wall of separation between Church and State, and resulted in actual damages as a matter of law. This would be in cases of liable and slander, defamation, etc. These cases can stand on their own anyway, without challenging the rules of Church Government ... so a lawyer might advise an aggrieved former JW to not make an issue of Church government and muddy the complaint in court, and instead focus on the actual damages as the law allows.

    So the primary benefit to the Society is: Not to protect themselves against liabling former members ... but to have a more solid basis on which to terminate association with any JW, for any reason, at anytime, and not have the former JW be able to manuever the Elders, and delay matters for months or years ... since 1985, the Watch Tower Society and it's appointed agents, the Elders, have absolute power to terminate the association of any JW ... and there is nothing that any JW can do about it.

    In my own case: In 1993, I wrote to the Society and essentially barred any action toward me ... and threatened a lawsuit. They held off ... and it would have remained that way, except that the local Elders were able to generate a false basis that I started my own religion, and then determined that I had "Disassociated" myself. I could have beaten them in court on this one, but the costs would have been too great compared to the benefits.

    Why didn't they simply boot me according to the new rules? Well, they could have! They could have simply written and said that my association was terminated ... and there would be nothing I could do about it. But they made the error of making a charge, a basis on which they made their determination ... and they also feared me taking them to court ... so, had the local Elders left me alone, I would have simply faded away without any Disassociation or Disfellowshipping. But once they chose to take action, they simply should have terminated my assoication without any notice or reason.

    Is any of this Christian: No! None of it has anything to do with Jesus words at matthew 28:19,20. None of it fits within the Christian spirit or message of Christ. It is all about power, control, and protection from legal action and civil suits. The Watch Tower Society is nothing more than a human publishing corporation that became full of themselves, mostly due to their second President, Joseph F. Rutherford. He, in my opinion, is almost singularly responsible for ruining what otherwise wasa small friendly little cult.

    Sorry for the long post, but this question comes up from time to time, and I thought that maybe a more detailed discussion would prove helpful.

  • jerome
    jerome

    As far as I know...

    When the Scoiety makes a doctrinal change several things have to taken into consideration. The WTBS is a business and has to be run efficently to obtain maximum output. It is an exelent idea to combine a business venture with theology. It has brought the WTBS and others Billions of $$$. Even though money may not always be the underlying factor its counterpart power sure fils that gap. It is all justified with sincer belief that what you are doing has the approval of God almighty and is the right way to go about it.

    When the end justifiys the means and there is noone or no system in place to keep the ones carring out the means in check, it creates a situation where one mans opinion or just a few men at most becomes fact and the sole expression of truth.

    The persons in controll are always protryed as being in impeacbleare character and moral standing should be utilized as a suitable example to all to follow. Many people never get to see the man behind the curtain.

    It is a most dangerous situation indeed. As history has shown.

    # 1. Legal reprecussions;

    What would be the legal consequenses of allowing a doctrinal change? What laws would it break? Would it make life easier for us it this teaching dident exist? This question was surely taken in to account whit the change in the acceptance of alternative service. Even though it took many wasted years in prisions and the actual 'persecution' of the witnesses to bring about a reversal of the teaching.

    # 2. Political reprecussions;

    Even with freedom of speech and expression what political party would stand by and allow its authority to be systamatically undermined.
    If the threat becomes significant then it must be cut down at its roots. Measures will be put in place to hamper the further development of the movement and this has to be taken into account.

    # 3. Difficulty of defending its teachings;

    If its not broken dont fix it. They do not make doctrinal changes if there is no apparent need to do so.

    After a certain amount of time certain teachings become very difficult or impossible to defend.

    e.g The definition of 'this genetation' became impossible to defend after 1995. So the teaching that Armageddon would come within that 80 year period had to be abandoned.

    # 4. The amount of people that question the validity of this claim;

    The underlying factor behind this argument can be represented by the underlying sentense.

    "People may be blind but they are not stupid."

    The Scoiety would not wish for the brothers to be stumbled by an apparent discrepency in Jehovahs Organisation.

    If the Scoiety dident always play its cards right then it knows very well that it could lose a large proporion of its members or they may begin to question the authority of the mother organisation.

    Questions from readers is a great example of this factor. One would expect that with a large amount of negative feedback from its readers the Scoiety would have no choice but to consider making adjustments to its teachings especially if they are hazodourous or blantly unscriptual.

    # 5. The effect that it has on other doctrines;

    Doctrines are interlocking. If for some reason a doctrine can nolonger be accepted change then has to be made. For instance if
    the teaching of paradise on earth were to be abandoned, so would be the teachings regarding the great crowd.

    # 6. Publisity;

    How would the introduction of or change of a doctrine effect the public image of the organisation? Bad publicity is not good for business. It could affect sales and the recruitment of new members.

    # 7. Financial reprecussions;

    How much money $$$ do we stand to lose if we were to allow this change to occur. This is reported to be a key factor in the refusal to completly reverse the doctrinal follicy to abstain from blood.
    The untold lives lost seem to bear little weight when compared to the countless lawsuits that could me insuied against the watchtower society. This issue may have not been a suitable example as it the refusal of blood issue is way more complex thanjust a simple matter of money. But it is still relevant as the finacial aspect continues to play a vita rle in its sustained renual.

    # 8. Distinction from the public and other religions;

    Gods Almighty visible organisation must stand out from the others in this time of the end. The WTBS has to distinguish itself from other denominations.

    # 9. Pride;

    We are Jehovah's pure visible Organisation. We do not change for anyone eventhough we must stil give ceaser his due. They shall soon know that a prophet was among them.

    Last way too often least.

    # 10. Scriptural relevance;

    Well it has to be admitted that the WTBS bases its teachings on the the Bible. What also has to be admitted is that also is that its intrepretations of certain scriptures are very questionable to any logically minded person, to say the least. Not to mention the delebrate twisting of many scriptures to accomodate dottrinal issues.

    xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

    To anwser your question on batismal questions.

    It is a combination of

    Financial consequences;

    This is because it would open up The Scoiety to numerous law suits which would cause them to lose lots of $$$.

    When people get disfelloshiped they want to retaliate legally for losing their friends and family due to shunning.

    The question:

    "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have yourepented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?"

    Shows that you willing decided to follow the rules to the WTBS and to accept any consequences for breaking such regulations.

    You can see how this would come in handy in a trial.

    Bad publicity

    Imaginge what would happen if they were to completly reverse that doctrine so that whole blood could be accepted.

    The press would have a feild day and as I said before it would be bad for business.

    Loyality;

    They are not only devoting their time and energy to God but to his Organisation.

    If daddy is allowed to make rules then so is mummy.

    jerome

    p.s Sorry for mistakes and the length of this post.

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    <clap clap clap>

    ((((((((Amazing))))))))

    UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

  • meat pie
    meat pie

    Sorry I didn't read all that ,but surely (at least in UK) there can be no contract without the signature of the parties?

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