WTS says 'true' Christians don't sin!

by ozziepost 10 Replies latest jw friends

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  ozziepost

  The April 15 issue of The Watchtower carries this statement:

  "Even though we are imperfect and make mistakes, if we pursue righteousness, he shows his love for us in ways that will result in life and blessings." (emphasis added)

  Notice what isn't there? It's sin! Why? Because JWs aren't allowed to sin. If they do, they face a judicial committee. So for the most part, the 'average' Dub lives in a surrealistic world of denying his sinfulness. Yet paradoxically he will procliam to worldly persons that Jesus came for the forgiveness of sins. Hence this article can only portray "mistakes" as being committed by 'true Christians'.

  Isn't that the problem with the judicial committee arrangement? The elders do not see themselves as sinners and so are unable to demonstrate God's forgiveness. As Jesus said: "he who is forgiven little, loves little". (Luke 7:47)

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
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  refiners fire

  then they appear to be implying that "sin' is a willfull thing, as different from a "mistake".
  But then the Bible doesnt say that He came as a ransom for our mistakes, now does it.It says "sins", yet Jesus sacrifice doesnt cover willfull sin. Or does it?
  Hmmmm.
  Ozzie.Please develop this matter further.
  Impart wisdom unto us.
• 

  ozziepost

  yet Jesus sacrifice doesnt cover willfull sin. Or does it?

  Doesn't it?

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
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  refiners fire

  Well Ive lost track of their thinking cause Ive been out of the loop a long time.
  it seems to me that these are things to which there is no answer.The more I think about it, the more questions open up.Its a bottomless pit.Which, incidentally, is the reason I stopped thinking about it years ago.
  And what is "willfull sin"?
  Surely any m,an who commits adultery has committed a willfull sin.
  He must have planned and worked towards its fullfillment.systematically.
• 

  Perry

  Isn't that the problem with the judicial committee arrangement? The elders do not see themselves as sinners and so are unable to demonstrate God's forgiveness. As Jesus said: "he who is forgiven little, loves little". (Luke 7:47)

  
  Excellent point. Their attitude seems to be, why can't you just be righteous like us?
• 

  refiners fire

  I wouldnt say that they are sat there thinking themselves righteous.
  I would say they are sat there as representatives of Gods structure of things, upholding righteous statutes.
  They view themselves as functionaries of a righteous system.
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  Abaddon

  So, we have people who can make mistakes, using material compiled by people making mistakes, based on a book written by people who made mistakes, deciding on that basis whether someone has sinned?

  Can anyone else see a problem here?

  I think the heart of the problem is the double-speak infecting the WTBTShit Society. They are the god-appointed and directed fetid dolorous salve, recieving new light from YHWH (through a T3 Internet link they have in their boardroom no doubt; Tuesday; Netmeeting with YHWH (and he's pissed)).

  Anyone reading or being exposed to Dubbie beliefs on this topic would be given the impression that they are right 'cause god told them so ... except when they are wrong, and then it is human imperfection, and 'the light getting ever brighter'.

  So, if they are right, they are right, and you MUSTN'T disagree with them as they're speaking for god... unless they are wrong, but then it's quite understandable they are wrong, as they are mortal men with a heavy burden.

  The Elders operate on a similar but less lofty level of god-ordained rightness; they still have a tacit belief their appointment has been approved by... not Brooklyn, not the GB, but by good old YHWH. No doubt Henshel wets himself if a 'bad' elder is nominated.

  Thus any level of accountabilit or responsibility is 'poof', GONE. Thus the fudging of the issue of sin.

  Boy, I am so glad I don't live like that any more...
• 

  Francois

  Of course our willfull sins are covered. What other kind is there? Oops! I didn't mean to accept that blow job from my neighbor's wife. That was a mistake. Damn right. In my opinion, use of the word "mistake" is a weasel word the society uses. What do they really mean, using that word?

  Consider this statement from Oil of Olay: "Helps make your skin younger looking." There are two weasel words in that statement: helps and looking. You are meant to hear that if you use this product your skin will look young. But look at the qualifiers. It only "helps," it doesn't do the whole job. And younger "looking" is very subjective. The people who have an expectation of what to them is an emotional outcome hear only what they want to hear: your skin will be younger. They pay no attention to the weasel words. (Sorry about that lengthy explanation.)

  Same with "mistake." What the hell is a mistake and how is it different from a sin?

  Frankly, it's hard to get around the fact that "we all fall short." And isn't that what sin is? falling short of the injunction to "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect"? And ALL means ALL, including the elders. Some of the most egregious sinning I've ever seen was performed by one elder or another. Lording it over the congregation like a Pharisee is sinful in my opinion. Isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?

  True Christians sin alright. All the time. If they really are true Christians, a rare beast in my opinion, they would not even give any thought to presuming on the mercy of God by deliberately sinning, expecting God to forgive them.

  $ 0.02

  Francois

  NOTE TO GOVERNING BODY: You've been challenged to a debate, boys. Dont you have ANY balls?
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  Scully

  Have any of you read M. Scott Peck's book called The People of the Lie?

  Peck makes some solid arguments in defining "evil" as a psychological diagnosis. Some of the characteristics of evil (individuals and groups) include narcissism which is a childlike belief that the world revolves around oneself, the belief that one is above reproach, as well as the tendency to use others as scapegoats. Also, the use of lying and falsehood to accomplish their goals is another characteristic of evil people and evil groups.

  A good example of the scapegoating tendency was portrayed by Quotes in posting about his JW sister's letter in which she tells him that he is not invited to her wedding reception, 'her hands are tied', and it is Quotes' fault because "he left Jehovah" and that's how people are treated when they leave Jehovah.

  Do not these four main characteristics together play major roles in the inner workings of the WTS and JWs? Is it any wonder that the WTS has forbidden JWs from participating in any psychological studies?? Is it any wonder that JWs are warned about seeking out the professional services of psychiatrists and psychologists for depression and other mental health issues?? The WTS is perfectly aware of what the findings will be, and they desperately do not want to be found out.

  Love, Scully

  UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
  
• 

  AGuest

  May you all have peace!

  Dearest Refiner's Fire and OzzieP... you ask:

  yet Jesus sacrifice doesnt cover willfull sin. Or does it?
  "Doesn't it?"

  The answer is 'no', for WILFULL sin... is blasphemy... for which there is no 'covering'. The PROBLEM, though, is WHAT is 'wilfuill sin'?

  It is that sin which we CHOOSE to do, WITHOUT requesting forgiveness for, for which we do not ACKNOWLEDGE or CONFESS as sin, although we know it to be. David was forgiven his sin of killing Uriah and taking Bath-Sheba... because he ACKNOWLEDGED it as sin: he knew what he had done was wrong, but He granted God to handle it as He would, while begging for mercy and forgiveness. Thus, he RECEIVED it. Had he done as Adam did, however, and not taken responsibility for it but blamed in on Uriah, Bath-Sheba, or even God... his sin 'would remain'.

  Sin... is sin. And there is no 'ranking' of sin with God. Thus, lying is as 'sinful' as murder. (And murder is NOT the same as killing, for murder implies plotting and taking a life WITHOUT cause or justification - sorry, another subject!)

  As Paul said, "when the bad that I do is NOT what I wish to do, then it is not I, but the sin that is IN me..." We ALL have sin 'in us', for we were all conceived and born in sin in that we CAME from the sinFUL flesh before us, our parents. They 'existed' in sin; thus, we do, too. And that sin, that is IN us, will sometimes 'win'; it will compel us to do things we either don't WANT to do, or wish we didn't or wouldn't do... but do. So that WHEN we DO, it is not us, but our sinful flesh, the sin 'that is IN [us]'.

  In such instances, we have a 'covering', a sacrifice, One whose blood... HOLY SPIRIT (and not red hemoglobin, which is why we drink wine to symbolize it and not red hemoglobin)... can 'atone' for us, can 'wash' us and make us 'clean'. All we need do is ACKNOWLEDGE that it indeed WAS sin... and ask for forgiveness and covering. And it WILL be granted, for my Lord cleanses in SPIRIT... ALL who ask... just as he did those who sought cleansing in the FLESH... because he WANTS to!

  All flesh sins, dear ones, even animals. For sin is 'disobedience', and yes, even the animals can disobey God... for yes, they, too, are in a covenant with Him. That is why ravens as well as lions are at His bidding.

  So, one can commit a sin and remain haughty and convince him or her self that there is no NEED to seek forgiveness. Why would such one do so? Because they rely on THEMSELVES... that THEY are 'righteous' and have no NEED of salvation. And, so they are left in such sin and error, with no covering, for the simply reason they fail... or REFUSE... to ask for it. As my Lord say, "Because you say 'I see'... your sin... remains."

  But it is the CONTRITE IN HEART that God grants forgiveness to, through Christ, for He is... "the God of the Brokenhearted".

  Therefore, remember the lesson of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, and HUMBLE yourselves before God, and HE Himself... will 'exalt' you. God does not expect us to be 'perfect' in the flesh, for the flesh is sinFUL... FULL OF SIN. However, He DOES wish us to be 'perfect' in HEART and SPIRIT, which perfection is borne out in FAITH (to see and hear that which canNOT be seen with the eyes and hears of flesh), OBEDIENCE (to His voice as He speaks to us even today, through Christ), and LOVE... even of our enemies... and which is further borne out in "Do NOT judge... and you will be NO means BE judged."

  I, myself, SJ, have spoken it to you, just as I have received it from my Lord, the Son of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.